[WoW] PVE-->PVP xfers now allowed!

[Ughmahedhurtz]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9679894520&sid=1

Now ain't that something?

For those can can't see the wow forums: From Bornakk:


Why are you now allowing character transfers from PvE realms to PvP realms?

Because World of Warcraft has matured significantly since the inception of Paid Character Transfers, we don’t feel that PvE-to-PvP transfers will have the negative impact on the game that we initially wanted to avoid when we started the service in 2006. This change will provide more mobility and freedom for players to experience the game with friends or play in the type of environment they’re looking for.

So I can transfer any character to any PvP realm of my choosing now?

Yes, as long as there are no other existing restrictions that would prevent the transfer from taking place, such as trying to transfer a Horde character to a PvP realm where you already play an Alliance character. Please see the Paid Character Transfer FAQ for more details and restrictions.

Do PvE-to-PvP transfers differ from other transfers?

No. The same rules and restrictions will apply to these transfers. Please visit the Paid Character Transfer FAQ for further details.

What if I don’t like the PvP realm I transferred to? Can I go elsewhere?

Any character that has completed a realm transfer can be transferred again after 30 days have passed.

Will there be any measures implemented to prevent abuse of this feature?

We’ll continue to monitor all realms and make changes to how the service works if it appears that abuse is taking place.

Will you offer PvE-to-PvP Free Character Moves in the future now that the option is available through the Paid Character Transfer service?

We may offer Free Character Moves from PvE realms to PvP realms in the future, should the need arise.

Will I now be able to create both Alliance and Horde characters on the same PvP realm on one account?

Creating both Horde and Alliance characters on the same PvP realm is still restricted, for many of the same reasons why Alliance and Horde characters cannot speak to each other in the game. Maintaining a barrier between the Alliance and Horde factions supports fair gameplay and is in keeping with the spirit of the Warcraft universe. Heh, guess I'll stop leveling my priests now. :P

[blast3r]

I was just looking at this in WoW forums. Holy crap! Never thought I would see that.

[sicsid]

Well thats neat!!!!! I was thinking about rerolling onto a pvp server, but now I wont have to reroll!!!!

[gigauae]

well personally i dont like that, but who cares :D am sure some ppl will find this a very interesting experience, and imo now its safer for ppl to lvl as pve then migrate to pvp, leveling in a pvp community is a challange imo

[Rigz]

I play exclusivley now on Pvp servers and I think this is cool.

At the end of the day any true pvper wants more people for more competition, so since this change can only increase server pop at the high end for world pvp (not counting the small minority who will quit in protest). World pvp is pretty much the only reason anyone would transfer (well ganking to) so world pvp should go up.

The only possible negative side effect (other than getting ganked a bit more) is if evryone decides to roll on pve servers for the grind, turning 1-60 content into even more of a ghostland. Of course this is a moot for 5 boxers who would benifit from the reduction in pre-outlands ganking due to the reduced pop of levelers.

So I give this a cautious, thumbs up.



Also I can't be the only one looking forward to watching the general boards ignite in a blaze over this. Should be some EPIC bitching.

[KSboxers]

Guess the 1-69 range will really be empty on PvP servers now. Why bother when you can roll a PvE and transfer it. I actually started a shammie group on mag yesterday. But i'll be rerolling them on my server now and possibly transferring them at 70.

[Toned]

Now if only they allowed paid faction changes :).

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Now if only they allowed paid faction changes :).Completely agreed.

[Korruptor]

WOOT!!!!

[Jaws5]

Now if only they allowed paid faction changes :).

Now that would be fun.

One day you tearing up BG as a orc hunter

next day you are a Dwarf hunter

Now that could be fun

talk about confused

[kadaan]

Heh, I'm actually happy because now I can transfer my 70 from a PvP server to a PvE server. I hadn't done it yet because I didn't want to limit my options for transfers later, but if I can always go back to a PvP server I don't have to worry anymore! :)

[Ruodhaid]

Thats relly what i have been looking for :)

[gigauae]

Guess the 1-69 range will really be empty on PvP servers now. Why bother when you can roll a PvE and transfer it. I actually started a shammie group on mag yesterday. But i'll be rerolling them on my server now and possibly transferring them at 70.thats one side effect but am not sure if ppl will pay extra buck just to lvl safe, whats the point in playing in pvp if u not able to kill em while they try to quest or lvl :D

[evaqwesta]

OMG that is amazing. I have so many characters I haven't played in years because they're stuck on PVE servers that friends no longer play on.

[TheBigBB]

If people are actually willing to pay $25 just to avoid griefing while leveling, Blizzard is the real winner.

[Bradster]

I've never once even logged on to a PVE server. For all that
has endlessly earned reaching 70 being camped or fighting for those quest mobs
being side tracked hours a day just to level. I'm quite upset at the free ride
to 70 then xfer to PVP. There’s nothing
I can say or do to change that, but I am unhappy about.


But perhaps there will be an upside to it. Last week I was
in Iron Forge for an hour and a half and only 4 people came to fight me in that
time. I got so bored fighting npc guards that spawned I logged. World PVP is really dead. Might do something for
it.

[Rowdysattva]

I would pay 25$ to avoid the hassle while leveling. I might enjoy world pvp at high end but high end ganking low level is just stupid to me. To each their own, we all pay our subscription. I didn't roll on a pvp server just because i didn't want to play with the gankers. In the bg's where we steamroll i don't really enjoy.

I would consider transferring to a pvp server with a good mb community once i am at 70 now.

I think it is a good change

[Skuggomann]

Dam didnt see that comming XD

[Coltimar]

If you aren't leveling alone it doesn't take that much longer to level to 70 on a PvP server. PvP in WoW is such a joke anyways. Guys in T6 aren't going to want to get embarrassed by S2 noobs so they don't bother PvPing and most PvP gear doesn't have the viability for raiding so the rift is huge. I do believe a lot of carebears will be praying for their 30 day cooldown so they can transfer back to their PvE server.

[Schwarz]

FYI PVE players you generally have to fight for the summoning stone in front of kara. I always wondered do the PVE servers get little zone buffs like we do? Ie spirit towers in terrokar or the helfire buff.

[Naysayer]

But perhaps there will be an upside to it. Last week I was
in Iron Forge for an hour and a half and only 4 people came to fight me in that
time. I got so bored fighting npc guards that spawned I logged. World PVP is really dead. Might do something for
it.Probably just your server. You can't do that shit on my server.

[Marious]

Darn too bad they did not have this 6 weeks ago, I could of leveled on my old PVE server than transferred to my current PVP server. I did spend quite some time running to my body when I was leveling from 1-60 not that I don't spend quite some time doing the same on the way to 70 but its to be expected.

I do hope some folks come over from the PVE servers could also use them for PVE raiding on the PVP server.

[asonimie]

Are there any servers out there with a decent group of alliance boxers around? Similar to <the zerg> on mag? I am going to be transferring to my new RAF accounts soon... so this is a perfect chance to hook up with some other boxers on another server somewhere.

Btw I run 5xShams, and am going to be leveling 2 new groups of 5 with my RAF bonus before Wrath.

Let me know thanks!

[Saevio]

FYI PVE players you generally have to fight for the summoning stone in front of kara. I always wondered do the PVE servers get little zone buffs like we do? Ie spirit towers in terrokar or the helfire buff.Yup, but in order to capture towers, you have to be PVP enabled.

[Rowdysattva]

yes on pve servers we get the buff in outland zones.

edit: but even if you are not enabled and your faction controls the towers you get the buff


And i haven't seen many people even try for towers. Usually if you want them you just enable your status and go stand there while you cap... no one usually shows on my server. In HFP it is mostly horde who control the towers and in Zang it is mostly ally who have the beacons.

[Saevio]

Totally different on a PVP server, I can dominate the towers in HFP if I want to, managed to get my 15 Honor Hold Marks in about 30 minutes.

After a while though, some 70s start to show up, and the ones with PVP gear are hard to kill :[

[Vyndree]

FYI PVE players you generally have to fight for the summoning stone in front of kara. I always wondered do the PVE servers get little zone buffs like we do? Ie spirit towers in terrokar or the helfire buff.

IMO, it's not the leveling part that "gets me" about PvE->PvP transfers. It's things like meeting stone "raids", fighting for elemental plateau or good rep grinding areas, and things like getting ganked at the graveyard when you released from TK instances/raid. Those are all prohibitors to PvE progression -- if you had free range to raid whenever you like, without interruption; farm whenever you like (your only interruption being respawns and tapping the mob first); without fearing for your life when someone farms the same mobs as you for rep items (aldor/scryer, etc)...

Essentially, raid gear is "easier" to get on a PvE server because you don't have the constant fear of interruption thanks to PvP. Even progressing up to the point that you can ENTER raiding -- like blue starter gear... There are always massive meeting stone battles at hellfire, auchindoun, coilfang, TK.... PvP gear wasn't always available, you know. It's like PvE servers get a free "jump start".

The leveling, I really care less. Ganking is not PvP, and if they want to avoid it I don't blame them. But the lvl 70 vs lvl 70 fights you come up against normally -- even if it's just "we own sunwell isle -- you shall NOT do your dailies! No gold for joo!!" by a massive PvP guild... that's world PvP. And it doesn't just screw with leveling -- it screws with your time when you might NOT want to PvP (i.e. raiding, farming, gearing).

If I see people in full sunwell gear sauntering around bragging about how they raided on a PvE server and never had to deal with any PvP all the way to sunwell... I am going to get my horde friends to camp them for all eternity.

I remember, back when Kara was progression..."f*ck, horde raid at the kara stone... Everyone start porting to stormwind and fly over..." You'd try to run through the raid to get inside, but the gate would be closed and you'd watch as they fear/sheep/MC'ed you far enough away that you couldn't even corpserez inside the gate and had to try again. PvP servers don't just affect levelers. And for some god awful reason, we always had raid times at the same time as horde.

[Velassra]

And the forums are down lolz and the posts looks capped lol.

More I think about it, kinda getting irritated. I made it to 41 today w/o RAF. Too far along to start over, but low enough I'm going to catch alot of shit from 70's transferiing in running in to gank.

I don't feel like paying Blizzard and xtra 250 to transfer off till 70 then transfer back in for the fucking they just handed me.

[roddo]

This is kinda bullshit if you ask me. The getting ganked while leveling is annoying, but its not that bad, until you hit outlands. I just hit 50 on my 3 box crew, and I've been ganked 4 times, killed by someone my level once. All but about 4 levels were done outside instances. I leveled a solo lock to 70 on a pvp server, and it wasn't bad there either, just stay out of stv, southshore or arathi during peak hours and your fine. The world pvp when your 70 and are the under represented faction on your server is when life starts to suck, especially when they didn't have the welfare pvp blues and you had like 50 res if you were lucky. You'll see people level up, get geared up entirely on pve servers, then xfer over and screw with people. Doing any outlands instance will suck worse, especially pre 70 when you can't just fly in and get to your instance.

I'm not a huge fan of pvp servers despite leveling on them a few times, but theres a certain pride in surviving the trials and tribulations inherent to a pvp server. Thats all gone now, as your no different if you've been pvp for 4 years and have 100k hks, as the newb who leveled to 70 a week ago on a carebear with no lifetime hk's. To me this waters down a certain aspect of pvp servers, the we're tougher because we survived, and your weak because your to scared to play here. This is a line even EQ refused to cross last I checked, and its a bad move in my opinion.

[moji]

To me this waters down a certain aspect of pvp servers, the we're tougher because we survived, and your weak because your to scared to play here. Bigheaded much? I left because I got tired of fighting over just trying to get a raid started in front of kara, farming primals and dying to the 5 nelf huntards in the area who kill me when I'm already low from fighting mobs. Scared, no. I just don't have the time for the frustration, which was all I really experienced. Leveled and played a Prot warrior on Shattered Halls for the early days of BC, raided kara for less than a month, rerolled and never looked back. Leveling wasn't hard, but endgame sucked.

My time is more valuable than epeen.

At least we'll be able to get rid of the morons on pve servers who flag up and stand on questgivers to try to get us to flag.

[NoobShammy]

I would pay 25$ to avoid the hassle while leveling. I might enjoy world pvp at high end but high end ganking low level is just stupid to me. To each their own, we all pay our subscription. I didn't roll on a pvp server just because i didn't want to play with the gankers. In the bg's where we steamroll i don't really enjoy.

I would consider transferring to a pvp server with a good mb community once i am at 70 now.

I think it is a good change

THIS...i was on Thaurissan for a while with my 63 x5 shammy squad and quit them, was easier to reroll then to pay to xfer IMHO with RAF. I cant tell you how many times a 70 would run i and gank my toons. I was in Gadget and there were 13 70s killing me and all the guards for that matter. THe server is 6-1, but seems like 12-1 and just retarded. to me though PVP servers means zero. There is no world pvp, just world ganking

[Hachoo]

I like this change, there will be plenty more clueless pvpers now to kill easily...tons of 70s with welfare epics that I can stomp all over the place :) Already tons of 70s on my server that have no idea how to pvp, so this will just increase the population, which I will enjoy.

[Prepared]

This is 100% AWESOME!!!! I now have a use for my level 70's that I've not been playing since staring the 32 shamans. Well, really the only use for the 70's I have is when I get camped by some 70 on Aegwynn. But NOW!!! NOW I can simply log in my level 70's and KICK BUTT on those players that wiped me out while I was leveling up my shaman! I'm going to move all my 70's to Aegwynn RIGHT NOW!!!!

[dodger6988]

I like it simply because I have a toon with some much needed gold parked on a PVE server that is now going to be transfered over. The gold is worth it too me to pay the transfer fee since rerolling on Mag naked and broke so to speak is harder that I thought ut would be. The Zerg has been a big help, getting me bagged up, but paying for training on my 5 hunters and their pets has left me in a perpetual state of broke since I got there. I have made some cash at the AH, but my gear is so bad that a random act of kindness by a lvl 70 hunter in ORG is the only reason I have decent bows. He saw my train, thought my dance formation while I was checking mail was cool and inspected my toons and felt so horribly sorry for me that without telling me he went and bought 5 bows in the AH and brought them to me cuz "that gear is an embarassment to hunters everywhere that needed to be corrected". This will let me lvl without having to worry about gold for training, mounts or lvling a profession here and there which is how I am used to playing.

[Stealthy]

Seriously, what a cop out by Blizz. With this, RAF, and the next patch making less exp needed to reach 70, levelling up a toon has gone to supa-ezy™ mode. Why not just make everyone start at 55 and be done with it.

Welcome to the new world of Activision Blizzard.

[Prepared]

I like it simply because I have a toon with some much needed gold parked on a PVE server that is now going to be transfered over. The gold is worth it too me to pay the transfer fee since rerolling on Mag naked and broke so to speak is harder that I thought ut would be. The Zerg has been a big help, getting me bagged up, but paying for training on my 5 hunters and their pets has left me in a perpetual state of broke since I got there. I have made some cash at the AH, but my gear is so bad that a random act of kindness by a lvl 70 hunter in ORG is the only reason I have decent bows. He saw my train, thought my dance formation while I was checking mail was cool and inspected my toons and felt so horribly sorry for me that without telling me he went and bought 5 bows in the AH and brought them to me cuz "that gear is an embarassment to hunters everywhere that needed to be corrected". This will let me lvl without having to worry about gold for training, mounts or lvling a profession here and there which is how I am used to playing.

You're right! I hadn't thought about that, I've got a bunch of gold also on my 70's that will help out my Shaman. Plus! I already have one of the Shaman at level 70 now because when I created all of the shaman on Aegwynn, I created them all so they look exactly the same as my level 70 that was on my non-pvp realm. Now the big question is, what should I name the level 70 one? :thumbsup:

[Zub]

I like it simply because I have a toon with some much needed gold parked on a PVE server that is now going to be transfered over

Careful, transfered characters have a limit in how much gold they can carry across. Not sure but i think it's 10,000g for a 70, and quite less for a lower level.
Double check it



Now the big question is, what should I name the level 70 one?
Put the 70 in the pack of 32 and name it preparpwn, then wait for some dud to try and gank you.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

But perhaps there will be an upside to it. Last week I was
in Iron Forge for an hour and a half and only 4 people came to fight me in that
time. I got so bored fighting npc guards that spawned I logged. World PVP is really dead. Might do something for
it.Probably just your server. You can't do that shit on my server.Same here. There are a few guilds on each side that regularly raid opposing faction objectives. More some weeks than others but it's pretty common to run into org or UC or TB and see skeletons for miles.

[Kel]

PvPers should probably view this in the light of 'lambs to the slaughter', I have an image of a lot of mediocre players transfering to PvP servers to 'pwn noobs' and getting their butts handed to them by people who actually know how to PvP.

Personally I don't care about this change, I transfered away from my PvP server a long time ago, having levelled (and raided) with a crappy computer and as a resto druid (yes there was a time when they were free kills). I was often dead before my computer loaded what was happening, but sometimes I got to watch while I was stunlocked/feared to death. MC into the lava in BRM was another frequent way to die. Not to mentioned level 60s one-shotting you while you were trying to quest. I didn't enjoy it then, so there's no chance in hell I'd want to go back.

I'm hoping all it means for me is we get a few whiners transfer off our server to pvp ones, meaning less chance for queues.

[Ifalna]

I was furious at first, having leveled my second shaman team on a pvp realm to 62 when the news hit.
But now I am thrilled, I get to keep the Shamans I much much prefere, and play with my friends, instead of having to compromise on one or the other.

Theres going to be a lot of complaining about this from pvpers, but the bitching from pve'ers before this change for years was far worse.

[Lorune]

Essentially, raid gear is "easier" to get on a PvE server because you don't have the constant fear of interruption thanks to PvP. Even progressing up to the point that you can ENTER raiding -- like blue starter gear... There are always massive meeting stone battles at hellfire, auchindoun, coilfang, TK.... PvP gear wasn't always available, you know. It's like PvE servers get a free "jump start".
For all your arrogant and dumb remarks, you outdid yourself here.

What worries me the most is that you actually believe what you wrote here.... idiot

[zanthor]

I personally intend to use this transfer for a level 10 with lots of trade goods... I've wanted to start on a PVP server however with the rate RAF levels you really need gold to back it. So I'll mule about 15K gold over in the form of epic gems, primals, etc and resell and start my life as 4 shammies on a pvp realm.

[blast3r]

Essentially, raid gear is "easier" to get on a PvE server because you don't have the constant fear of interruption thanks to PvP. Even progressing up to the point that you can ENTER raiding -- like blue starter gear... There are always massive meeting stone battles at hellfire, auchindoun, coilfang, TK.... PvP gear wasn't always available, you know. It's like PvE servers get a free "jump start".
For all your arrogant and dumb remarks, you outdid yourself here.

What worries me the most is that you actually believe what you wrote here.... idiot

What on earth crawled up your ass that you would talk to her like that? She is posting her opinion and just because you don't agree with it doesn't make her an idiot. She has been very successful with boxing and I think she has enough experience to make the comment she did.

:thumbdown:

[Schwarz]

Essentially, raid gear is "easier" to get on a PvE server because you don't have the constant fear of interruption thanks to PvP. Even progressing up to the point that you can ENTER raiding -- like blue starter gear... There are always massive meeting stone battles at hellfire, auchindoun, coilfang, TK.... PvP gear wasn't always available, you know. It's like PvE servers get a free "jump start".
For all your arrogant and dumb remarks, you outdid yourself here.

What worries me the most is that you actually believe what you wrote here.... idiot

You are dumb. I raided on a pvp server and there were times that it would put us back 10-15 minutes of start b/c the opposite faction had control of the area. Even if you get everyone to SSC for example you might have to do 2 or 3 corpse runs to actually make it into the instance. I remember a couple times having the whole raid zone out to clear some alliance to get a few more people in. Staying with the SSC discussion you need to farm primals for resistance sets. I have a feeling this is takes longer when you have the option of being killed several times.

So to summarize from your simpleton mind. Things take longer on a pvp server. IE
It's like PvE servers get a free "jump start"

[Kel]

For all your arrogant and dumb remarks, you outdid yourself here.

What worries me the most is that you actually believe what you wrote here.... idiot

Have you actually played on a well populated PvP server?

I remember hiding in BRM while watching 2 horde raids and 1 alliance raid making their way to MC and it definately wasn't a case of everyone letting the rest get on with it. I used to go afk when flying to Light's Hope Chapal, because before they added guards there you could rely on a horde being there to kill anyone landing (and every time you ressed until you got far enough away that they couldn't be bothered to look for you anymore). I can't imagine this is any better at level 70 near popular instances. The lower levels are probably fairly tame compared to when a lot of people were levelling up pre-BC (I've played one of my old alts recently, but only in DWM and at off-peak times, so no idea if bored high levels still wander around looking for easy pickings), as I imagine most 70s are in outlands ganking people.

I haven't played properly on a pvp server for ages, because when I decide to do something I actually want to be able to do it, rather than have some bored ganker decide that they really want to ruin my day (and believe me, some will). I can't imagine the hassle it must be to do simple things like dailies or primal farming. The worst I have to deal with is people stealing my mobs (which are of course automatically mine when I decide I want to farm them) and maybe killing a gryphon master or escort npc. Now imagine how much fun it would be if that person (or group) killed you everytime you were in range so you have to corpse run or fly back to carry on grinding/questing.

Vyndree believes what she wrote because it's true to her experience of life on a PvP server. I believe it because it's very similar to my experiences on a PvP server and I highly doubt they've changed that much - the focal points will just have moved to new hot spots. You've decided not to provide any compelling evidence for your rebuttal of her opinions and I'm left wondering if you actually have any experience of a PvP server or are just making assumptions that they are not much different from PvE ones.

[5fingersofdoom]

Just to add I like this decision by Blizzard,now if only they would only add exclusive content for PvP only servers 8o

[Schwarz]

There are little things that happen on PVP servers that you might not experience on PVE servers. Like opposite factions going afk on quest turn in NPC's. If you aren't careful when you go to right click the quest turn in NPC you attack and then aggro guards which then kill you and cause durability.

I feel I need to further explain the free jump start.

If you have 2 equally geared and skilled raids one on a PVP server and one on a PVE server. They both raid 4 nights a week for 4 hours. They should progress at the same point through the content. But lets say one group raided for an extra 15 minutes every night. While this is a small difference it could be one more attempt on a boss. So 4 more attempts on bosses per week. The group that is getting more attempts will surely advance quicker.

Where does this 15 mins extra come from? Well fighting over the summoning stone or corpse running into an instance 2 or 3 times.

[Naysayer]

Essentially, raid gear is "easier" to get on a PvE server because you don't have the constant fear of interruption thanks to PvP. Even progressing up to the point that you can ENTER raiding -- like blue starter gear... There are always massive meeting stone battles at hellfire, auchindoun, coilfang, TK.... PvP gear wasn't always available, you know. It's like PvE servers get a free "jump start".
For all your arrogant and dumb remarks, you outdid yourself here.

What worries me the most is that you actually believe what you wrote here.... idiotI agree with Vyndree. Have you ever played on a pvp server, or is silvermoon pve your only experience?



My opinion is, I don't care now that pvp gear is decent enough to compete in most situations, rather than when Naxx raiding guilds always had the advantage in pvp gear-wise and PVE Naxx guilds were a dime a dozen compared to PVP server Naxx raiders.

[Kyudo]

I'm PvE, proud of it, and will continue to be so...

I am ok at pvp, and do it when I feel like it.

I dont doubt that it is less hassle to level on a PVE server, but the way I see it, you just add time and frustration to the levelling exercise on a PVP server, and have it "normal" on a PVE server. Guess it depends on your point of view.

This does not mean raiding itself is easier on a PVE server per-se.

[zanthor]

I'm PvE, proud of it, and will continue to be so...

I am ok at pvp, and do it when I feel like it.

I dont doubt that it is less hassle to level on a PVE server, but the way I see it, you just add time and frustration to the levelling exercise on a PVP server, and have it "normal" on a PVE server. Guess it depends on your point of view.

This does not mean raiding itself is easier on a PVE server per-se.Yer right, the actual skill to kill BossA on PVE vs PVP server doesn't change.

The pain in the ass to farm a 300+ nature resist and frost resist set on PVE is trivial compared to PVP... the fact that you can get ganked multiple times on the way to the instance...

FFS my guild had a policy of dont bring your PVP flag to raid or we'd /kick you til you resolved it... this was because even on a PVE server we would see consistant delays if some dipshit forgot to toggle off BEFORE coming to an instance... Imagine the ability to NOT turn it off... especiall for the TK instances where you are alive in the GY, honorless or not, people are going to gank you just to gank.

And to Lorune... of all the people to attack, you pick one of the most loved in the community (And not just because she has a great fishtank)... Wow, priceless.

[Zzc2]

FFS my guild had a policy of dont bring your PVP flag to raid or we'd /kick you til you resolved it... this was because even on a PVE server we would see consistant delays if some dipshit forgot to toggle off BEFORE coming to an instance... Imagine the ability to NOT turn it off... especiall for the TK instances where you are alive in the GY, honorless or not, people are going to gank you just to gank.

HAHAHAHAAAAA oohh man, that made me laugh. PVE carebears are funny.

[merujo]

another change that in time no one will remember.


any decent player knows the difference between the effort in pve and pvp. imo pve to pvp transfers should only be allowed to those who transfered previously from a pvp server, and regreted it :)

but, who cares really.

ppl talk about blizzard making money out of multiboxers, when the big money is in these transfers and name changes :P

[Multibocks]

This option is mostly worthless to multiboxers. Seriously, most of us have 15X 60 or more(so that's 375 bucks.) Funny thing is I want a free transfer from pvp to pve, as I'm tired of world pvp. It was fun for a bit, but when I log in now and want to farm, that's it. I don't want to deal with s4 70s and the kid behind the keyboard. Sadly Magtheridon isnt high enough(population wise) for a free transfer, not to mention I don't believe they do free pvp to pve transfers.



edit: and to throw my own weight into the pvp vs pve argument. I have leveled 10+ charactesr 1-70(I had alt-itis for a while) on a pvp server (Malganis.) I also leveled on a pve server with my brother until he quit. Leveling it probably costs you 4 more hours to hit 70 just dealing with the opposite faction. Hardly something to cry about. Then again I do want to leave my current pvp server, so there must be some daily stress involved though I really can't quantify it.

Also vyndree I would like to point out that if some PVE'rs take advantage of this to move to a PvP server they only gain that advantage for one cycle of loot. Meaning they can transfer over with t7 or whatever, but t8 they will earn like everyone else(since they are now on a pvp server.) So is one tiers worth of loot gained on pve worth this much anguish? I think not.

[Vyndree]

Essentially, raid gear is "easier" to get on a PvE server because you don't have the constant fear of interruption thanks to PvP. Even progressing up to the point that you can ENTER raiding -- like blue starter gear... There are always massive meeting stone battles at hellfire, auchindoun, coilfang, TK.... PvP gear wasn't always available, you know. It's like PvE servers get a free "jump start".

For all your arrogant and dumb remarks, you outdid yourself here.

What worries me the most is that you actually believe what you wrote here.... idiot

O.o

Wow, if you disagree that strongly with my opinion... I don't see much of a counter-argument here.

From the portion of text you quoted from me...
...are you saying that you disagree with PvP server interruptions?
...are you saying that you disagree with PvP servers having interruptions at meeting stones?
...are you saying that you disagree that PvP server interruptions have any effect on time?
...are you saying that you disagree that the time involved with PvE interruptions negatively affects PvE progression? Why? Don't you believe that time = practice, practice leads to experience, experience leads to learning, and learning leads to completing a difficult task (i.e. raid boss)?

And, are you willing to back up your personal stance with a fact-based rebuttal? Or are you just going to sling personal attacks without any useful counter-argument?


I have to say I am a bit surprised at the hostility. I wasn't aware that I was attacking anyone -- I could've sworn my post was made with every effort of identifying that I was merely stating my opinion and how I felt about the PvE->PvP transfers. (I mean, honestly... the first word in my post is a great big "IMO")

Is there some sort of argument between us that I'm unaware of?


And to be clear, I base my opinion on my experience as a resto shaman soloboxer (prior to multiboxing) from Kara --> SSC/TK (in a guild that was top 5 in progression on my server), and a BT/Hyjal/Sunwell enhancement shaman raider currently working on Kil'Jaeden (the ONLY guild on my server to have killed M'uru).

I believe I have good credentials for my opinions, particularly considering:
There was no decent PvP gear to easily supplement my progression, unlike Kara-progression guilds that now have access to S2 honor gear
I had raided as a resto shaman prior to the 30% healing->damage, which exacerbated my experience farming mats and consumables on a PvP server. To be utterly clear, my "Farm set" consisted of blue elemental gear I had picked up through quests, totaling 600 +damage. No, I did not have a 70 dps spec "farm alt" at the time.
I have experienced "top end" raiding for my server, i.e. competition between guilds for PvE progression on a PvP server. See "Negative Bro" on WoWJutsu ('http://wowjutsu.com/us/archimonde/')

[Vyndree]

Also vyndree I would like to point out that if some PVE'rs take advantage of this to move to a PvP server they only gain that advantage for one cycle of loot. Meaning they can transfer over with t7 or whatever, but t8 they will earn like everyone else(since they are now on a pvp server.) So is one tiers worth of loot gained on pve worth this much anguish? I think not.

I'm not "anguished". ;)

However, I would be upset if someone on a PvE server who had easier access to farm materials, consumable use, meeting stone use and whatnot showed up with better gear. Should I get replaced by this person, I would be upset. Am I upset right now? No, it hasn't happened.

I don't have a problem with PvE transfers coming in to be with their friends.
I don't have a problem with PvE transfers coming in because they wanted to level without a gankfest.

I would have a problem if a PvE server player had easier access to gear and took my spot (or one of my friends' spots) in our hard earned raids.
I'd be just as upset if, for example, my guild was currently progression on Karazhan, and some sunwell raider on another PvP server transfered in and took mine or my friends' raiding spots.
I'd be just as upset if I were a raider on a low-pop server that constantly had to deal with not enough attendance for raiding, and therefore slow progression... and an entire guild transfers in just to be "top in progression on the server".

They are all equivalent offenses to me -- one person has an advantage, and travels over to somewhere where there is a disadvantage so that they can feel "top dog" -- THESE will be the PvE transfers that I will despise -- and it's not because of the PvE server, but because this dude has a nasty personality and just wants to strut around, boast, and push people around. These are people with entitlement issues, who think they "deserve" to be the best when they really did nothing. These would be the people that I would make sure get a nice, warm, PvP server welcome. :evil:

The point I was making is, no... leveling is not the only thing that affects PvP servers. Yes, PvE servers have a "jump start" (note that a skilled guild on a PvP server still has a chance of beating a sucky guild on a PvE server in progression -- but taking two equivalently geared raid guilds... the one on the PvE server has a jump start -- it's true) that includes both leveling and any sort of progression that even partially involves being outside in the world.

It sucks, yes, but it's not the end of the world. A person can transfer to a server that is further progressed to make their life easier -- PvE or PvP. But you can't just look at the new PvE -> PvP transfer policy and think "oh, it only applies to leveling. Leveling has been nerfed in 2.3 and with RAF so it doesn't matter". The impact IS bigger. Big enough to QQ about? Nah. Big enough to be aware of? Sure.

I'm not belittling PvE players or PvP players. I'm not even really that upset about the "cycle of gear" you mentioned. I just don't want it to be assumed that PvP servers ONLY affect leveling (which is the general assumption I'm seeing). It affects EVERYTHING you do -- but people focus in on ganking because you can't fight back. What about the prot warrior or healer who's farming mats? Can they fight back, even though they're 70?

I'm just making sure there's awareness. PvP players might have an elitist attitude about their servers, but usually it's in response to a belittlement about the impact that they have to face from BEING on a PvP server.

Being on a PvP server doesn't make you a god at PvP.
Being on a PvP server doesn't mean you CAN'T compete at PvE raid progression.
Being on a PvP server doesn't make you "better".

But being on a PvP server DOES mean that you will have to face extra challenges whenever you step into the world outside of shattrath -- so, in the simplest sense -- us PvP server folks are somewhat idiotically masochistic -- and we get offended when people tell us "nah, you're just like us". Let it be known: PvP server players are either sadists, masochists, or friends of sadists and masochists. We're all crazy idiots who like putting obstacles in our path.

You can come in if you like, but don't belittle our insanity or the impact our insanity has on those around us.

So, PvE transfers: I welcome you with open arms. That is, until you take my hard earned raid spot or strut around like a little snot, to which I will take every advantage of the PvP server rules that you just transfered into.

[Schwarz]

Vyndree was your guild in SSC/TK or BT/MH before the attunments were lifted?

[Vyndree]

Indeedy.

Suvega was in BT/Hyjal before the attunements, but this was when our Kara-thru-SSC/TK guild ('http://wowjutsu.com/us/archimonde/Anarchy') (led by Suvega) was disbanding due to attendance issues and merging into various other guilds. (for reference, this guild disbanded over 6 months ago, and via WoWJutsu's scoring system ('http://wowjutsu.com/us/archimonde/Anarchy') would still be considered 23rd in progression on the server -- Archimonde, as a server, does not have many PvE progression guilds). Suvega now uses our old guild bank as his personal bank. ;)

When I started raiding again as Enhancement, I had killed Vashj and Kael but hadn't completed my prequest, so I had only gotten the Kael vial. (Not many guilds were doing SSC/TK anymore, so I had to pug it) Luckily by the time my new guild ('http://wowjutsu.com/us/archimonde/Negative%20Bro') needed me to insta-respec to a tier5/6 capable enhancement shaman ('http://vboxing.net/v/index.php?q=node/32'), the patch that removed the BT/Hyjal attunements had made it live.

I've had to deal with pretty much every boss from Magtheridon to M'uru and everything around and in-between in their pre-nerf state.


Even our multiboxed 2-man kara runs were done before the kara attunement was lifted. Let me tell you, multiple runs of Slabs and our lovely friend Blackheart the Inciter was "fun".

[Tehtsuo]

Personally I put in my dues and leveled my team on a PVP, and am glad now I have the option to transfer to a PVE server without forfeiting my rights to transfer back to a PVP server.

[Thulos]

I thought I would be pissed if this ever came about and I now realize I really don't care. Heck, I'm debating on taking advantage of this and leveling my 4x mage team on a pve server then xfer it over.

[Velassra]

Essentially, raid gear is "easier" to get on a PvE server because you don't have the constant fear of interruption thanks to PvP. Even progressing up to the point that you can ENTER raiding -- like blue starter gear... There are always massive meeting stone battles at hellfire, auchindoun, coilfang, TK.... PvP gear wasn't always available, you know. It's like PvE servers get a free "jump start".
For all your arrogant and dumb remarks, you outdid yourself here.

What worries me the most is that you actually believe what you wrote here.... idiot

Found this thread this morning at work so I couldn't post.....


Wow, what a fucking dick.

[Turenn]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't all the top raiding guild on PvP server? And isn't it just those guilds that progress the fastest? I would think it would be logical to assume that people that prefer PvP sever are more competative minded people, and wouldn't that spike a greater willingness to progress faster?

I personally think that the diffeculty of raiding doesn't have anything to do with which server you are but rather the skill of the raid.

And please as multiboxers you should all be ashamed about talking about someone getting an adventage for transfering to a PvP server. If there ever was someone with an advantage on any server it would be everyone on this forum.

[JonnyB]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't all the top raiding guild on PvP server? And isn't it just those guilds that progress the fastest? I would think it would be logical to assume that people that prefer PvP sever are more competative minded people, and wouldn't that spike a greater willingness to progress faster?


Ding Ding we have a winner! As a matter of fact on US realms, 8 of the top 10 guilds are from PVP realms (# 3 and # 10 being from PVE servers). if you just go by realm rankings (I'm using Wowjutsu's rankings) - 7 of the top 10 realms are PVP (#5 / # 9 and # 10 are the PVE ones)

Similar stats on the EU side, 8 of the top 10 guilds from PVP servers ( # 5 and # 7 from PVE realms) - and 9 of the top 10 realms are pvp realms ( The # 7 spot is a pve server)

Not easy to conclude if its just because the better players flock to the PVP realms or they are just more motivated once they actually get going, but clearly PVP is not a limiting factor in PVE progression.

[Elektroz]

Worldwide, it's like 40 of the top 50 are on a pvp server

and out of the top 10, spot # 8 is a pve server.

getting my facts from bosskillers.com

not sure how reputable that source is..

[Vyndree]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't all the top raiding guild on PvP server? And isn't it just those guilds that progress the fastest? I would think it would be logical to assume that people that prefer PvP sever are more competative minded people, and wouldn't that spike a greater willingness to progress faster?


I agree -- if it were the case that more "competitive minded" folks rolled on PvP servers, then PvP servers would have a higher level of progression. However, you're not comparing apples to apples.

Take two equivalent guilds -- both have the same raid times (let's say 6pm to 10 pm), both have the same skill level, and both have the same raid attendence. One guild is on a PvP server, and the other is on a PvE server.

Now the PvP server guild has to deal with interruptions like PvPers at the meeting stone, people ganking them while they're farming mats and consumables, that sort of thing. The PvE guild does not have to deal with that.

If both are equivalently skilled and on a total equal level than each other, with one being on a PvE server and the other being on a PvP server -- which one will attempt, learn, and down the boss faster?



Now if you assume that folks who might not be as stubborn and competitive roll on PvE servers, then you're effectively saying that, because of a uncontrollable personality trait which affects their ability to raid at a same-level skill as the PvP server, it is fair to allow them a handicap. Not only that, they are allowed their handicap until such period that they decide to have a personality switch and reroll on a PvP server...


Now assume that both groups were notified that, at any time, they can now transfer from a PvE server to a PvP server. IF super-focused highly competitive personality traits that draw people to PvP realms are now given the ability to transfer between PvE and PvP servers at whim, would it not make sense (to the competitive PvPer's mind) to roll unconfronted in safety on a PvE server, gain the handicap advantage that was "intended" for the normally the not-so-enthusiastic PvE personality, and then take that advantage back with them to the PvP realm....?


Basically, if you're saying "hey, it's OK because PvP-server mentality folks are just more skilled than PvE-server mentality folks", then you open up another HUGE can of worms by accepting that PvE players are less skilled. I, personally, do not agree with that assumption -- alot of skill goes into raiding -- and grats to those who were top on the PvE progression list. But just because you happen to be infinitely more skilled than the other guy doesn't make the other guy deserving of a handicap. Skill is skill, and should be measured on an equal level.

If those high-progression guilds were on a PvE server, with no competition for materials or random PvP encounters pre, post, and mid-raid -- they would undoubtedly complete bosses at a faster rate given their skill level and the advantages that a PvE server brings.


Out of curiosity -- we have statistics that guilds on PvP servers are consistently pulling world firsts or near-world-firsts. Does anyone have statistics for the number of PvP guilds in Sunwell content? The number of PvE guilds in Sunwell content? The percentage of PvP players doing Sunwell content? The percentage of PvE players doing Sunwell content?

Just because they happen to be first doesn't mean they are a majority.

First = skill. (from what I understand most of these "server first" guilds already practice exhaustively on the PTRs, so I hesitate to even say that -- massive amounts of dedication, skill, and more importantly time go into world/server firsts)
Majority = accessibility

[Vyndree]

Worldwide, it's like 40 of the top 50 are on a pvp server

and out of the top 10, spot # 8 is a pve server.

getting my facts from bosskillers.com

not sure how reputable that source is..


I'm not really sure how reputable bosskillers.com is either, but I searched around and found a advanced guild search list ('http://www.bosskillers.com/cgi-bin/bbguild/index.cgi').
http://www.bosskillers.com/cgi-bin/bbguild/index.cgi?action=guild_advancedsearch&sid=JBTpb83o7c


I did a few calculations (but had to stop after the database query lag became a bit unbearable)... "top 50 guilds" is by no means a representative sample size of the entire raiding guild population.



63305 Results Found -- PvE guilds
89554 Results Found -- PvP guilds

152859 total guilds (PvE + PvP)


What this means is that there are MORE raiding guilds on PvP servers than there are on PvE servers.

However, this means little to nothing since I don't know...
What the overall population of PvP servers is compared to PvE servers
How many PvE servers there are in comparison to PvP (I could find this out, but I'm lazy)



Let's look at the top 10% of all guilds via Bosskillers' census on guild raid progression...

1 thru 15285 = top 10%


7044 PvE guilds
8241 PvP guilds

On first glance, it looks like there are MORE PvP guilds than there are PvE guilds represented in the top bracket of raid progression. However, a closer look reveals that this is not the case...


7044 PvE guilds in the top 10% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.111270831 = ~11%
8241 PvP guilds in the top 10% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.092022690 = ~9%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~11%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~9%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 10% of raid progression worldwide.
Delta between PvE and PvP: 2%, in favor of PvE guilds
PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +1% :thumbup:
PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -1% :thumbdown:



But that's just the top 10% of all raid progression, which is the elite of the elite. You know, the server firsts and whatnot.

What about the top 20% of all raid guilds?


1 thru 30570 = top 20%

14435 PvE guilds in the top 20% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.228023063 = ~23%
16135 PvP guilds in the top 20% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.180170623 = ~18%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~23%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~18%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 20% of raid progression worldwide.
Delta between PvE and PvP: 5%, in favor of PvE guilds
PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -2% :thumbdown:



Surely, it must start to even out by 30%... I mean, the majority of PvP servers can't be filled with either world first raid guilds and karazhan farmers... right?...... right???


1 thru 45855 = top 30%

21264 PvE guilds in the top 30% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.335897638 = ~33%
24591 PvP guilds in the top 30% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.274594099 = ~27%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~33%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~27%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 30% of raid progression worldwide.
Delta between PvE and PvP: 6%, in favor of PvE guilds
PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:



If I try to query for the top 40% of all PvE and PvP guilds at this point, Bosskillers starts timing out mid-query. So I started having to query for the 30-40% and just add it on to the previous number... Don't anyone ever say I wasn't resourceful. ;)


1 thru 61140 = top 40%

27493 PvE guilds in the top 40% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.434294289 = ~43%
33648 PvP guilds in the top 40% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.375728610 = ~37%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~43%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~37%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 40% of raid progression worldwide.
Delta between PvE and PvP: 6%, in favor of PvE guilds
PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:



Surely... SURELY the top 50% of the guilds will show a more even number??? Right now PvP servers seem pretty fail compared to PvE...


1 thru 76429 = top 50%

34265 PvE guilds in the top 50% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.541268462 = ~54%
42166 PvP guilds in the top 50% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.470844406 = ~47%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~54%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~47%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 50% of raid progression worldwide.
Delta between PvE and PvP: 7%, in favor of PvE guilds
PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +4% :thumbup:
PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:



http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/2029/progressionbc0.th.jpg (http://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=progressionbc0.jpg)
Ideally, this figure should look something like a figure-8 -- with PvP guilds showing more representation at the "lower" end ("attumen"/100%) of the chart, since there is higher representation from PvE guilds at the "higher" end ("Kil'Jaeden"/10%).

My numbers start getting screwy at this point (rounding errors), and Bosskiller's database probably hates me... In any case, I think I've proven this point:
Of all raiding guilds, PvP server guilds are less likely to be one of the top progressed guilds. This does not mean that PvP guilds are UNABLE to get world firsts -- however, they are statistically less likely to succeed in comparison to PvE guilds. Pull a random PvP guild out of a hat of all known PvP raid guilds, and you're going to hit a kara badge farmer more than if you were to pull a PvE guild out of a hat of all known PvE raid guilds. You might hit a random lucky lotto winner and get a world first Kil'jaeden PvP guild -- but chances are... you won't overall.


Note: I'm no expert on where BossKillers gets its data, but since the top 40 guilds data was presented from BossKillers, I used a consistent source for my data.

[Turenn]

Worldwide, it's like 40 of the top 50 are on a pvp server

and out of the top 10, spot # 8 is a pve server.

getting my facts from bosskillers.com

not sure how reputable that source is..


I'm not really sure how reputable bosskillers.com is either, but I searched around and found a advanced guild search list ('http://www.bosskillers.com/cgi-bin/bbguild/index.cgi').
http://www.bosskillers.com/cgi-bin/bbguild/index.cgi?action=guild_advancedsearch&sid=JBTpb83o7c


I did a few calculations (but had to stop after the database query lag became a bit unbearable)... "top 50 guilds" is by no means a representative sample size of the entire raiding guild population.



63305 Results Found -- PvE guilds
89554 Results Found -- PvP guilds

152859 total guilds (PvE + PvP)


What this means is that there are MORE raiding guilds on PvP servers than there are on PvE servers.

However, this means little to nothing since I don't know...
What the overall population of PvP servers is compared to PvE servers
How many PvE servers there are in comparison to PvP (I could find this out, but I'm lazy)



Let's look at the top 10% of all guilds via Bosskillers' census on guild raid progression...

1 thru 15285 = top 10%


7044 PvE guilds
8241 PvP guilds

On first glance, it looks like there are MORE PvP guilds than there are PvE guilds represented in the top bracket of raid progression. However, a closer look reveals that this is not the case...


7044 PvE guilds in the top 10% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.111270831 = ~11%
8241 PvP guilds in the top 10% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.092022690 = ~9%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~11%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~9%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 10% of raid progression worldwide.
Delta between PvE and PvP: 2%, in favor of PvE guilds
PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +1% :thumbup:
PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -1% :thumbdown:



But that's just the top 10% of all raid progression, which is the elite of the elite. You know, the server firsts and whatnot.

What about the top 20% of all raid guilds?


1 thru 30570 = top 20%

14435 PvE guilds in the top 20% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.228023063 = ~23%
16135 PvP guilds in the top 20% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.180170623 = ~18%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~23%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~18%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 20% of raid progression worldwide.
Delta between PvE and PvP: 5%, in favor of PvE guilds
PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -2% :thumbdown:



Surely, it must start to even out by 30%... I mean, the majority of PvP servers can't be filled with either world first raid guilds and karazhan farmers... right?...... right???


1 thru 45855 = top 30%

21264 PvE guilds in the top 30% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.335897638 = ~33%
24591 PvP guilds in the top 30% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.274594099 = ~27%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~33%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~27%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 30% of raid progression worldwide.
Delta between PvE and PvP: 6%, in favor of PvE guilds
PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:



If I try to query for the top 40% of all PvE and PvP guilds at this point, Bosskillers starts timing out mid-query. So I started having to query for the 30-40% and just add it on to the previous number... Don't anyone ever say I wasn't resourceful. ;)


1 thru 61140 = top 40%

27493 PvE guilds in the top 40% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.434294289 = ~43%
33648 PvP guilds in the top 40% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.375728610 = ~37%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~43%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~37%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 40% of raid progression worldwide.
Delta between PvE and PvP: 6%, in favor of PvE guilds
PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:



Surely... SURELY the top 50% of the guilds will show a more even number??? Right now PvP servers seem pretty fail compared to PvE...


1 thru 76429 = top 50%

34265 PvE guilds in the top 50% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.541268462 = ~54%
42166 PvP guilds in the top 50% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.470844406 = ~47%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~54%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~47%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 50% of raid progression worldwide.
Delta between PvE and PvP: 7%, in favor of PvE guilds
PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +4% :thumbup:
PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:



http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/2029/progressionbc0.th.jpg (http://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=progressionbc0.jpg)
Ideally, this figure should look something like a figure-8 -- with PvP guilds showing more representation at the "lower" end ("attumen"/100%) of the chart, since there is higher representation from PvE guilds at the "higher" end ("Kil'Jaeden"/10%).

My numbers start getting screwy at this point (rounding errors), and Bosskiller's database probably hates me... In any case, I think I've proven this point:
Of all raiding guilds, PvP server guilds are less likely to be one of the top progressed guilds. This does not mean that PvP guilds are UNABLE to get world firsts -- however, they are statistically less likely to succeed in comparison to PvE guilds. Pull a random PvP guild out of a hat of all known PvP raid guilds, and you're going to hit a kara badge farmer more than if you were to pull a PvE guild out of a hat of all known PvE raid guilds. You might hit a random lucky lotto winner and get a world first Kil'jaeden PvP guild -- but chances are... you won't overall.


Note: I'm no expert on where BossKillers gets its data, but since the top 40 guilds data was presented from BossKillers, I used a consistent source for my data.

Jesus Christ lady :p

[Saevio]

7044 PvE guilds in the top 10% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.111270831 = ~11%
8241 PvP guilds in the top 10% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.092022690 = ~9%Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~11%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~9%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 10% of raid progression worldwide.For those percentage calculations, shouldn't you be using the total number of guilds, (ie. 152859) and not just the totals for PvE/PvP guilds?

So shouldn't it be:

7044 PvE guilds in the top 10% / 152859 total guilds = 0.046 = ~4.6%
8241 PvP guilds in the top 10% / 152859 total guilds = 0.053 = ~5.3%

Because otherwise, the numbers and the percentages don't match up, you can't say that there are more PvE guilds in the top 10% because there simply aren't, there are 1197 more PvP guilds in the top 10% and more PvP guilds overall, the percentages mean little when talking about more and less.

My numbers above show that out of the top 10% raiding guilds, 5.3% are from PvP servers, and 4.6% are from PvE servers (the last 0.1% was probably lost when rounding).

[Naysayer]

The hardest part of a raid is actually getting into the instance :P

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/tastywastaken/WoWScrnShot_090808_230915-1.jpgnuff said

[OzPhoenix]

Personally I support the change, only because Blizzard already knocked a hole in the wall, when they allowed selective PvE--->PvP transfers a while back to correct some glaring Faction imbalances on some PvP Servers. To me the policy should be all or nothing, either PvE--->PvP is never allowed - ever - or it's open slather.

I was hugely annoyed when the opened up Aman'Thul (PvE) to Thurassian (PvP) (both Oceanic) recently, as I had been levelled a 5-box team on Thur, but was in no way at all going to put with being ganked by people who hadn't had to go through the PvP levelling process.

Still, being mostly focused on PvE, I don't intend on transferring. I am hoping the Lake Wintersgrasp works out well in WotLK, because then we'll have a useful whole-zone to go to when we do want to PvP, and if it does work out that way, I expect to have the best of both worlds. Zones to farm, instance etc when I want to PvE, and somewhere to go when I want to PvP that will be an auto-flag territory.

[zanthor]

The hardest part of a raid is actually getting into the instance :P

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/tastywastaken/WoWScrnShot_090808_230915-1.jpgnuff saidDing ding ding.... we have a winner.

I've been in PVE raiding since early retail and I can say I've never seen that outside an instance. I like my carebear server for raiding, it's nice and safe and I don't have to worry about getting PWTN when I afk at a meeting stone...

[Vyndree]

So shouldn't it be:

7044 PvE guilds in the top 10% / 152859 total guilds = 0.046 = ~4.6%
8241 PvP guilds in the top 10% / 152859 total guilds = 0.053 = ~5.3%

Because otherwise, the numbers and the percentages don't match up, you can't say that there are more PvE guilds in the top 10% because there simply aren't, there are 1197 more PvP guilds in the top 10% and more PvP guilds overall, the percentages mean little when talking about more and less.

But you're not taking into account the number of raid guilds per population. The number of PvP servers in existence is not the same as the number of PvE servers in existence.

Yes, there are more PvP servers in the top ten NUMERICALLY, but what if there are also more PvP SERVERS in existence? If you were to join a PvP server, would you have a statistical chance of getting into the top 10% guild just the same as you would if you rolled on a PvE server? What if the PvP server's population is higher than the average PvE server? This is all data that will skew the numbers if you take them at face value. Therefore, we have to look at the total value and just quantify the difference in DISTRIBUTION.


Let me put it in words so it's a bit easier to grasp.

There are 5 sunwell raid guilds on 1 pvp server -- and 200 karazhan raiders on 200 pve servers. Which is better?
There are 5 karazhan raid guilds on 1 pvp server -- and 200 sunwell raiders on 200 pve servers. Which is better?
There are 5 sunwell raid guilds on 1 low population pvp server -- and 200 karazhan raiders on 200 high population pve servers. Which is better?
There are 5 karazhan raid guilds on 1 low population pvp server -- and 200 sunwell raiders on 200 high population pve servers. Which is better?


You see how server number, progression (i.e. sunwell vs karazhan), and server population can skew a simple 200 > 5?


So what I did is said -- hey, let the population be population and number of servers be number of servers.

We DO have percentile data for progression. We have top 10% of the total number of guilds, we have top 10% of pve guilds, we have top 10% of pvp guilds. These numbers, in an ideal world, would be 10% = 10% = 10%.

We know x many total guilds raid. We also know y of those are pvp servers, and z of those are pve servers.
If I have a set of the top 10% of raiders -- both pve and pvp, that means ideally there should be 10% of the total pvp servers present in that number, and 10% of the total pve servers present in that number to make it a perfect "even" average.


Essentially, I'm taking a set of groups and seeing how the groups are DISTRIBUTED.

Therefore I am taking

# pvp guilds in top z% / # total pvp guilds = x
# pve guilds in top z% / # total pve guilds = y

And then comparing these two numbers to their ideal, which is just the z%.

So if we're looking at the top z = 10%, then these two equations (x and y) should both, ideally, be 10%.

I can completely ignore the total number of guilds, this way, because the total is irrelevant. I only used the total to formulate my BossKillers guild query -- "count all guilds in the top 10%". To get to 10% I had to find the total number of guilds they knew existed, and multiply it by 0.1 -- the total number of guilds is otherwise meaningless to me.