Multiboxing and Raiding DKP

[Savage]

Does anyone raid here? An interesting thought just popped into my head. For a guild that uses DKP, do they let each of your multibox characters have independent DKP? I mean, I dont see why not, but I could see people getting pissed that you have all of that DKP to roll with, and that you're taking up 4-5 spots.

[Basilikos]

I'm just theorizing here, but the issue here is to remember that YOU don't have that DKP. Your CHARACTERS do. If one single-boxed character cannot transfer DKP to another single-boxed character, then your multiboxed characters should NOT be able to do so either. Basically, the rules should apply to each of your characters like they do to everyone else's. If everyone has that understanding up front, it should be fine.

This goes to the heart of why the ignorant and naive in the WoW community think multiboxing gives an advantage - they tie their in-game gains to their personal gains, which is ridiculous.

[Savage]

I'm just theorizing here, but the issue here is to remember that YOU don't have that DKP. Your CHARACTERS do. If one single-boxed character cannot transfer DKP to another single-boxed character, then your multiboxed characters should NOT be able to do so either. Basically, the rules should apply to each of your characters like they do to everyone else's. If everyone has that understanding up front, it should be fine.

This goes to the heart of why the ignorant and naive in the WoW community think multiboxing gives an advantage - they tie their in-game gains to their personal gains, which is ridiculous.Yeah, I see what you're saying. The only reason that i said something is that I didnt think a lot of people here raided for obvious reasons. I figured the few that do would have a lot of info on it. I dont plan to raid, but I just figured that would be an interesting question.

[Suvega]

You better pray you can find a very -understanding- guild. Raiding with 4 characters will be difficult unless they are in desperate need of players for a raid.
Do -NOT- expect to get all your characters in over someone else, that is quite selfish imo.

I.e. You can play multiple characters because you need the "challenge", over someone else who just wants to play.

[TheBigBB]

I'm pretty sure that no one multiboxes to any significant degree in 25 mans. You could pull it off for some ealry Hyjal or BT bosses and that's about it. The guilds who would allow it aren't serious progression guilds or else they wouldn't even care about tossing gear to characters who can't even help later on when personal accountability becomes important. So in that sense the multiboxer who gets loot over others across multiple toons is sort of not playing fair to his teammates anyway because he's not going to be able to bring all his guys to every boss.

[Toned]

I used to 6 box Everquest raids (because the player limit was 72, so space wasn't as big of an issue). Some guilds would let each of my toons act as independent people as far as DKP was concerned, others only let me get dkp on my main. It really depends on your guild. Pre-TBC I 2 boxed MC/BWL/ONY and my guild only let my main have DKP but I could use my main's dkp on my alt if I wanted. I've yet to run into a WoW guild that lets multi-boxers raid, earn loot, and dkp for each character. I also stopped raiding after SSC/TK so who knows now maybe there are guilds more willing to allow MB raiders. I honestly think the best way and probably the only way you will be able to achieve a loot system where you are able to get your toons DKP/Lewt is to start the guild yourself, or with a fellow MBer. Then recruit single people for other roles.

[Toned]

You better pray you can find a very -understanding- guild. Raiding with 4 characters will be difficult unless they are in desperate need of players for a raid.
Do -NOT- expect to get all your characters in over someone else, that is quite selfish imo.

I.e. You can play multiple characters because you need the "challenge", over someone else who just wants to play.Soap Box Often?
Multi-boxing is a style of playing why shouldn't you be able to raid that way if your guild lets you.

[Tonuss]

If you had a 4 or 5 boxer that regularly ran with your raid group, and they were getting only one character's worth of DKP... how fast do you expect to progress when one-fifth of your raid is gearing that slowly?

[Toned]

If you had a 4 or 5 boxer that regularly ran with your raid group, and they were getting only one character's worth of DKP... how fast do you expect to progress when one-fifth of your raid is gearing that slowly?Exactly.... you get it !

[TheBigBB]

You better pray you can find a very -understanding- guild. Raiding with 4 characters will be difficult unless they are in desperate need of players for a raid.
Do -NOT- expect to get all your characters in over someone else, that is quite selfish imo.

I.e. You can play multiple characters because you need the "challenge", over someone else who just wants to play.Soap Box Often?
Multi-boxing is a style of playing why shouldn't you be able to raid that way if your guild lets you.Make posts out of total ignorance often? Find me even one guild who's cleared through Black Temple using someone multiboxing while raiding. It's not feasible. MAYBE a 2-boxer could happen, but not likely. What do you do when one of the box team has to kill constructs? What do you do on Mother when one or more of your guys gets Fatal Attraction? How do you even begin to do Archimonde? A real serious progression guild would never even dream of allowing all the hard work to be spent on someone who can't micromanage when they could just recruit another solo player. Multiboxing is not a hobby that works well with complicated micromanagement social encounters. Raiding can be done for some early bosses, but not in a serious guild who makes it far.

[TheBigBB]

If you had a 4 or 5 boxer that regularly ran with your raid group, and they were getting only one character's worth of DKP... how fast do you expect to progress when one-fifth of your raid is gearing that slowly?Exactly.... you get it !You get the same amount of items no matter what order people get loot. The worst case scenario for the theoretical raiding multiboxer is that he gets his loot last. So the other people gear up first - big deal. That's probably how it should be. Raiding is about a team, not an individual. If you are in a serious raiding guild, all the staple raiders get gear in due time. You don't get more gear by distributing it better.

[Kel]

I've never taken a multi-boxer on a raid and never attempted to raid on more than one character. If for some reason my guild did take a multi-boxer then I would probably say that all toons earned dkp, but they are deprioritised on drafts compared to solo players. This is in order to give every person an equal chance of seeing the content. One person taking up 1/5 of the raid is not fair on the 4 people now sitting out, who could have gone with that same person taking only one character. So for me, in a raid environment a multi-boxer would basically fill in any spaces left in the raid (assuming they covered the role we needed). They can earn dkp on any characters that go and also spend it on any characters that go. For me, the resriction would come with actually getting toons into the raid in the first place.

As to how far they can go, I'd imagine that multi-boxers would only be useful as far as your guild can brute force their way through. If your guild can complete a fight with 1-4 people not doing what they are meant to do (from a strategic point of view) then you could probably taske a multi-boxer along without too much issue.

Maybe I'm underestimating the ability of multi-boxers to micro manage, but I can imagine a few encounters where a multi-boxer would be a hindrance. Getting back on the platform after Lurker's spout, keeping your alts attacking the correct target when one or more toons gets watery graved on Morogrim. For Vashj you might be vaguely useful for nuking down striders, but for handling the cores you'd be fairly useless (and maybe even detrimental if someone throws a core to an alt by mistake). Rage has the lovely icebolts, Kaz'rogal you're at risk of blowing your whole group up, Naj'entus you either ignore the spines (not useful depending on how many you are) or your alts lapse in dps whilst you focus your main on getting it out. Supremus also I could imagine being a lot of fun with the aoe and gazes.

Also I'm pretty sure that due to latency and delays for things like alts acquiring a new target, your dps wouldn't match an individual player of that class (assuming equal gear and capability - you could probably test this out by soloing on one toon and comparing it to your boxed performance on that toon). On fights that your guild has surpassed this won't be an issue, but on fights where you need everyone performing at a high level AND reacting to the strategic elements of a fight then multi-boxers really don't have much appeal.

I realise this is a very multi-box negative post, on the whole I think it's a cool, fun hobby. I just don't see how it would fit well into progress raids for a guild pushing past T4.

[Caspian]

With all the new WotLK raids having a 10 man mode and me being in a small family guild I plan on boxing half the group with the family filling out the rest. Then DKP is not an issue.

I ran (as part of a group of leaders) a large raiding coalition in Classic WoW, we had like 7 different guilds that raided and DKP was always an issue. We also had a lot of people, we probably geared 100 people in MC, and a lot of alts. We ended up setteling on DKP per toon, it was the most fair way to do it. 1 main raiding toon what ever alts you wanted as long as it supported the group. Mains had invite and loot priority over alts.

We had two MC's running a week at one point. Had to get those damn bindings. 26 man, with 22 alts, took down of Garr for my last binding!

I think the same type of solution would be most fair to multiboxers and the rest of their group. They pick one main raiding toon and their alts are "secondary citizens" so to speak. They come to help the group but not at the expense of anyone in the group.

[cheeseprophet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POy9Zg3nivM&feature=related
........
Now Suvega can shut up :)

[Rudi89]

I would imagine most raiding guilds would credit one toon as a main and the others as alts. I would think that is how my guild would do it. Alts can't gear up over mains but all would earn DKP (probably some things that promote attendance, like the on-time bonus, would not stack though).

Whether or not a raiding guild would take multi-boxers on progression content... Different discussion. ;)

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I would imagine most raiding guilds would credit one toon as a main and the others as alts. I would think that is how my guild would do it. Alts can't gear up over mains but all would earn DKP (probably some things that promote attendance, like the on-time bonus, would not stack though).

Whether or not a raiding guild would take multi-boxers on progression content... Different discussion. ;)Guilds that would look at 4-5 DPSers in a raid that helped them down content w/o wiping and then treat them as one person for DKP/loot purposes are the kind of guilds that make people hate raiders and PuGs, IMO. /shrug

[TheBigBB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POy9Zg3nivM&feature=related
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Now Suvega can shut up :)No one's going to argue that it can't be done on some or many encounters, especially T5 and lower, and especially with Aelli. I'm going to assume that this is not a progression run, though. I think my guild could take Aelli to T5 content and do fine, though I wouldn't consider it in BT.

[Vyndree]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POy9Zg3nivM&feature=related
........
Now Suvega can shut up :)

Have you even DONE the Vashj fight?

Ellay was given the simplest role in that fight (Strider DPS), and -- you can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe his guild already had Vashj on farm status, if not terribly overgearing SSC.



In any PROGRESSION encounter, it's logical to assume that a multiboxer is a added disadvantage due to their lack of ability to move/think independantly.

Multiboxer advantages: Burst DPS against a single target.
Multiboxer disadvantages: Independant movement/CC/interrupts

Now how many PvE encounters require single target burst DPS, and how many require independant movement/CC/interrupts? How many guilds stack elemental shamans in their raids (which would likely take the place of CC dps classes)?

I'm not saying that it CAN'T be done, but any guild that isn't already farming the boss is going to have a hard time rationalizing WHY they're bringing you. Multiboxers don't have many advantages in PvE -- PvP, sure... Focused fire is great. In a guild that's min-maxing in order to progress, it's going to be a hard sell.

Given that you're a disadvantage to a progression raid, if your guild is up to the challenge of toting you around and potentially tailoring their raid to your weaknesses, you should negotiate with them how much DKP that's worth. Personally, I wouldn't settle for anything less than independant DKP per-character, non-transferrable between characters. However, if your guild is willing to bend over backwards to let you progress with them, and you're willing to take a cut in DKP -- that's your own decision.

[Rudi89]

I would imagine most raiding guilds would credit one toon as a main and the others as alts. I would think that is how my guild would do it. Alts can't gear up over mains but all would earn DKP (probably some things that promote attendance, like the on-time bonus, would not stack though).

Whether or not a raiding guild would take multi-boxers on progression content... Different discussion. ;)Guilds that would look at 4-5 DPSers in a raid that helped them down content w/o wiping and then treat them as one person for DKP/loot purposes are the kind of guilds that make people hate raiders and PuGs, IMO. /shrugI don't think you read my post, or something. The alts would be able to gear, just not over other mains, and the 'main' for the multi-boxer would be gaining much more DKP than other folks in raid, ensuring he/she would get first pick on DPS loot. Seeing how you'd have, say, 4 shammies, odds are you'd be gearing them about equally fast with everyone else (and your main would be able to outbid pretty much everyone else). It's the same way that the guild treats folks with multiple alts who raid (though not all at the same time). With a DKP system you want to reward folks who down bosses but you want to avoid gearing up alts instead of new raiders who you need to replace folks who leave the game for whatever reason. Plus you avoid the administrative nightmare that is tracking DKP per toon, as opposed to raider, and you don't punish people who are nice enough to bring their healer alt, say, instead of their DPS main so that you have enough folks to zone.

It would be tough to always seed all the toons of a multi-box player though. If the player was flexible and could bring anything from 1-to-all of his/her toons, depending on need, I don't see how folks could object. But when you're sitting (geared/non-retarded) folks over multi-box toons I think that would end up hurting the guild recruting-wise and morale-wise. It's hard enough maintaining the numbers needed to raid with your typical guild drama and I think simply by it's nature multi-boxing would hurt your retention of folks who are the best raiders; folks who raid for content, not loot.

[Suvega]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POy9Zg3nivM&feature=related
........
Now Suvega can shut up :)

No offense, but this has absolutely nothign to do with my comment, you should research something before trying to rebuttell :P

The video you posted is aelli doing the most simplistic job on a fight that his guild has been farming for -months-. If you've been in a guild who's been farming content for months, you'd understand that it's like pulling teeth to get enough people to show up, (especially for fights like vash and kael).

And Toned, no offense but you're completly unrealistic, and trying to warp my words. First off I said good luck finding an understanding guild. If you happen to find one, grats to you. Secondly, in my PERSONAL view, it would be selfish to think that you can get in 4 characters at the detriment of your fellow guildmates (lol I get to take 4 characters, and you none).
That isn't a -soapbox-, it's a personal view.

[Eteocles]

Discussing DKP equality is the same as discussing religion or politics; it's highly situation and position based and there is NEVER a consensus reached ;p Only thing you can do is discuss it with your particular DKP Overlords and see what's available to you vs your position within the raid.

If they can replace you easily, be on the defense, give in to some demands make some concessions, protect your privilege to raid.

If you're one of the handful of raiders in your guild that's actually competent and knows the encounters/pulls their weight, be on offense more without sounding too conceited. This is how I got away with alot of things in my raid environments, while I joke and screw around alot outside of boss encounters to keep the mood light, when crunch time comes I'mtotally focused and not only watching/doing my own job, half the time I was watching/doing someone else's too cuz they were too damn stupid/stubborn to do so and held us back if I hadn't covered them. I proved myself as a Boomkin Raider before they were even considered raid viable classes(or even viable period) and thus got to go on any raid I wanted and had fair shot at all upgrade loot(sans MT Tier gearups but that's a given)

The same will go for boxers, just don't expect special DKP rules as DKP is a pain in the ass to work with as it is without special exceptions. Just take normal DPK on EACH char(They all need to gear up; if YOUR PARTICULAR GUILD AND/OR LEADER WILL ALLOW IT, ask if you can have "pass" rights to Buy with one and pass it to a specific alt if need be; this is a case by case basis though and your raid leader may either agree or laugh at you and kick you out of the raid/guild ;p)

Edit: And always remember: As I said above, it's a privilege, not a right; be thankful if they take more than 1 char at all, and don't be too stubborn to sit out chars for others, or tone down to 1-2 chars on the harder movement based fights where a bunch of stacked chars = death.

[Rudi89]

The video you posted is aelli doing the most simplistic job on a fight that his guild has been farming for -months-. If you've been in a guild who's been farming content for months, you'd understand that it's like pulling teeth to get enough people to show up, (especially for fights like vash and kael).
Yeah, I would think you could bring multiple toons to some farming content depending on how progressed your guild is and, well, depending on the fight. I do suspect that will change when WotLK comes out though and folks are scrambling to get their toons geared and zoned in to the first lvl 80 raids. I would think it would be tough to get raid slots with multiple toons at that point, owing to my experience when TBC came out, as you get 'waves' of folks leveling to the cap together and they end up forming the first raids together. Since most multi-boxers level 'by themselves' you miss out on that.

[TheBigBB]

Another point to be made against the idea of equal DKP treatment across your characters is that if you go on vacation, and your raid was seriously recruiting with your 4 or 5 guys in mind as being a staple of the raid (once again, highly unlikely), then it's way too big of a blow to the group. The full boxing team should only be brought in for farm encounters, to fill in empty spots, or just for the fun of it. Serious fail to gear out that team if that one guy gquits, disappears, doesn't show, etc.

[Drizzit]

buttyou said butt... :P


First off I said good luck finding an understanding guild. If you happen to find one, grats to you. Secondly, in my PERSONAL view, it would be selfish to think that you can get in 4 characters at the detriment of your fellow guildmates (lol I get to take 4 characters, and you none).
That isn't a -soapbox-, it's a personal view.I don't think it is selfish, well unless you are raid leader then it is. If the raid leader says that it is ok to bring all 4 then it isn't selfish. If he says no and you beg him to say yes, then it is selfish. When i joined my guild the guild leader asked what one was my main. Even though i play all of them as my main, he wanted to know what one was considered my main. They all get dkp, but like others say my alts get second grabs to someone's main, which i don't have a problem with and i agree with. But if my main and another main want something it should go after dkp cause i have earned it (if i have more then him). When i sign up for kara (all i can do now), i sign up with all 4 and tell the person that is running it, i would like to take all 4 to the instance, but i don't mine bringing only 3, 2 or only 1. The really good thing is that the guild leader is pro boxer, i have a friend in there (both in the same guild before it disbanded), 2 others that saw me dual boxing ab and another 3 that i helped with a quest before i was in the guild. There is only 1 person that doesn't like me as of now, and said something bad to me in guild chat and those people whispered me right away saying don't worry about him.

[Suvega]

::Insert Drizzit's block of text here ::

Seems fair drizzit. I think where I go off the deep end is when people try to pull shinanigins like "All my chracters or none" and "I want special DKP privs". Transfering dkp between characters? uhh wat?
If you're reasonable about your requests, I'm sure plenty of guilds wouldn't mind raiding with a boxer. (I.e. normal dkp if dkp is involved, and you take as many charcters as spots are needed, but don't complain if they sit 1 /2 / 3 etc)

[Drizzit]

Seems fair drizzit. I think where I go off the deep end is when people try to pull shinanigins like "All my chracters or none" and "I want special DKP privs". Transfering dkp between characters? uhh wat?
If you're reasonable about your requests, I'm sure plenty of guilds wouldn't mind raiding with a boxer. (I.e. normal dkp if dkp is involved, and you take as many charcters as spots are needed, but don't complain if they sit 1 /2 / 3 etc)

Agreed. Haven't raided yet with the group, but talked to a the raid leader that i am raiding on Friday about it. I also told him if it doesn't work out that i will bow one, two, or three of my guys out to get someone else.

I would love to transfer dkp to toons, but i will get a lot of hate from players and I don't even think that is right. Maybe sense i am a first time raider (BC is the first time i raided, but raided in kara, gruuls, and mag) and i am hooked on it. I rather pick my battles, like pushing to go solo ssc, instead of pushing 4 shams in kara... this way guildies see i am a team player and don't complain too much.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I don't think you read my post, or something. The alts would be able to gear, just not over other mains, and the 'main' for the multi-boxer would be gaining much more DKP than other folks in raid, ensuring he/she would get first pick on DPS loot. Seeing how you'd have, say, 4 shammies, odds are you'd be gearing them about equally fast with everyone else (and your main would be able to outbid pretty much everyone else). It's the same way that the guild treats folks with multiple alts who raid (though not all at the same time). With a DKP system you want to reward folks who down bosses but you want to avoid gearing up alts instead of new raiders who you need to replace folks who leave the game for whatever reason. Plus you avoid the administrative nightmare that is tracking DKP per toon, as opposed to raider, and you don't punish people who are nice enough to bring their healer alt, say, instead of their DPS main so that you have enough folks to zone.

It would be tough to always seed all the toons of a multi-box player though. If the player was flexible and could bring anything from 1-to-all of his/her toons, depending on need, I don't see how folks could object. But when you're sitting (geared/non-retarded) folks over multi-box toons I think that would end up hurting the guild recruting-wise and morale-wise. It's hard enough maintaining the numbers needed to raid with your typical guild drama and I think simply by it's nature multi-boxing would hurt your retention of folks who are the best raiders; folks who raid for content, not loot.Fair points, all. As you say, once you get to a certain point, there are a ton of variables, meaning no easy answers. :P My perspective is, perhaps, a bit short-sighted.

[Rudi89]

Fair points, all. As you say, once you get to a certain point, there are a ton of variables, meaning no easy answers. :P My perspective is, perhaps, a bit short-sighted.No worries, I'm an officer in a (casual) raiding guild (3/9 BT, 2/5 MH). We've dealt with folks leaving, coming back, rerolling, running alts, etc., etc., which all can be DKP/loot nightmares. The main thing I would recommend if you're looking to raid as a multi-boxer is to find a raiding guild that isn't run by crazy people. ;) Being in a good guild makes all the difference. It also helps to not be a crazy person yourself. :D Just remember that all your purple pixels will go away some day and focus on having fun experiences.

I will say that Resto Shammies are almost always in demand by raiding guilds so if you're looking to raid just app-ing with one shammie (your instance healer) might be a smart idea.