Unintended Consequences - Blizzard Broke Arena

[Mercurio]

So in about 8 weeks of 5v5 and 120 games played, my 4 shaman and holy pally friend have hit an all-time high of 1580 and have spent most of our time around 1460 or so.

The vast majority of those games have featured at least two gladiators/duelist/rivals.

Before Bliz "fixed" arena, the uber arena folks would
1) Match vs other known highly rated opponents for win-trading
2) Get a team up to a high rating, then let people who paid play 3 games, then play 7 to maintain the rating.
3) PL up a number of teams, raping the 1500, 1600, 1700, 1800 brackets, then sell the team and start over.

None of the three of these styles of play were what Blizzard wanted, and rightly so. However, these styles of play kept the uber teams mostly out of lowbieville (1300-1600 rated teams).

Now the gladiator/duelist/etcs make money off PLing teams up to ratings high enough to buy gear, and do so over and over again by putting in three mid-level players with two uberplayers. This means about 70% of the teams we've played have had players who should be in the 1900-2200 rating brackets. It is just too hard for a group of players (or one multi-boxer and a friend) who truly belong in the 1500 or 1600 bracket to beat teams like this with any consistency.

So my 420 resil, 11K HP, 900 spell damage shammies will probably be going back to the AFK arena strategy that gets us just as many points for MUCH less work.

Could Blizzard not have seen that this would occur? I've got to think the VAST majority of people who are trying their hand at arena with fairly solid teams and strategies and who get completely owned over and over again by gladiators are getting a bit discouraged.

[Kiljaedon]

Arenas have been a world of fail since after Season 1. I detest, despise and hate Arena. Do not say well you are wearing season 3 gear so you still play arena. I did arena to keep competitive but I will be damned if I step into much of season 4. I will just let my alts sit with season 2 gear with maybe season 3 shoulders. Trying to balance the game around arena is sad imo for blizzard. Down with Kelgan.

[Velassra]

IMO arenas suck for that very reason. Ever since I rerolled just prior to TBC and arrived at 70 mid S2 and was out geared virtually the entire time I just didn't find it enjoyable. The ratings on gear are a step in making it fair, but what needs to be done to truly make it fair is you need to maintain that rating to equip the gear. If you're really that good, it shouldn't be an issue. Remaking a team to try a new comp? Why should you get to steamroll me as a fresh 70. "Hey, it's not the gear keeping you dopwn." I wouldn't know, w/o gear facing a geared opponent I drop to fast to really find out.
The current system makes it impossible to a new player to see what works and what doesn't.

I suck enough in arenas, I'd rather just play other players that suck as well. It adds insult to injury that I have to play titled players decked in full s4 while losing points to them, losing the points and ratings I need to obtain gear to compete with them in a ratings bracket that can't even obtain me more than 1 peice of s4.

However, I believe the current system is working as intended. The nutty players, it keeps them coming back for more. Most everyone else, win one here win one there.......just enough for you to keep coming back for more. Just like the "DING DING DING" on a slot machine, giving you just enough reward to come back for more. I have no doubt Blizzard contracted out to psychologists to get just enough balance, just enough reward to keep us hooked.

[pinotnoir]

If they want to fix arena and keep a rating system this is what they have to do.

1. Permanent Personal Ratings Only on all brackets.
2. Match teams based on the Avg Personal Rating of the Qued Team.
3. Rank Players instead of teams based on permanent Personal ratings.

This will keep the 2000+ rated player from playing 1500 rated players.

If a 3v3 has the following rated players, 2000, 1850, 1500 they would play teams 1783avg rating.

The problem with arena is the team reset. If players ratings were permanent through the entire season they would be forced to play people of equal rating. This will piss off many people but its the only fair way to arena.

[Mercurio]

Yeah, it is pretty frustrating when I have put the time in to get the gear and thought that would help me be at least competitive.

This week I went 0-10 and the most under-ubered team I faced had a only one gladiator and a rival (...only).

/rant on

Thing is, arena is such a beat-down, week after week, it has become work. How can I take any joy in getting owned repeatedly? It is one of those things that Bliz has made mandatory because the gear is so overpowered yet easily obtainable by just losing 10 games a week, but I rather dread it when I have to go through the pain each week.

Isn't this game supposed to be fun? Challenging, sure, but throw at least some fun in there too. Blizzard has set it up such that very solid team make-ups that practice together a lot have very little chance to win.

What is most sad is that I run a team make-up that is known to be able to win into the upper brackets and have very good gear - and I feel this way. I know there are a few of you who post on these boards and have some level of success (and therefore probably enjoy arena - more power to ya). However, if everyone entering arena is facing MOSTLY 2000+ rating players, the overwhelming majority of players must see it mainly as a weekly pain in the ass.

/rant off

I never really enjoyed AFKing arena to get points, but I enjoyed the web surfing I could do while my characters got owned. Gotta do what you enjoy :P

[Mercurio]

Wait, what?

You're QQ'ing because you can't compete? Because you're not the best?

Seriously?

LOL

It's the obligatory Fursphere post.

I think 2,500 of Fur's 3,500 posts on this board are 2-line put-downs that avoid the real issue.

Though I will say, some of his other posts let you know that if he takes the time to think through something he is very capable of constructively adding to the conversation. :huh:

[Mercurio]

If they want to fix arena and keep a rating system this is what they have to do.

1. Permanent Personal Ratings Only on all brackets.
2. Match teams based on the Avg Personal Rating of the Qued Team.
3. Rank Players instead of teams based on permanent Personal ratings.

This will keep the 2000+ rated player from playing 1500 rated players.

I agree. This would solve things and would not be hard to implement. Pinot is a pretty smart guy, but Blizzard has an army of smart guys working the system too. Why couldn't they figure this out?

And what could be the possible complaints about a system like this?

- "You mean you want me to face players of about my same skill level?" ?(
- "But I want to play with my other friend I'm not on my uberteam with." (There are two other brackets - knock yourself out)
- "But I play this game to show off my uberness and own noobs" (Go hit the BGs then, plenty of noobs there)

The whole chess model this was based on never had teams of unequally skilled players that could band together in odd ways, nor the ability to rating-reset. Pinot's suggestion would put WoW arena much closer to the chess system that has worked so well.

[Velassra]

Wait, what?

You're QQ'ing because you can't compete? Because you're not the best?

Seriously?

I think that's his point. He knows he's not the best but his point remains, why is he facing the best constantly while hovering at 1500.

QQ? Maybe it is in the strictest sense but do you really think that titled people should be seen constantly at 1500? Seriously?

[magwo]

Fursphere, do you even play arena actively?

Don't put people down who are complaining legitimately about failed game mechanics.

[magwo]

WTF...

Yes, when you first ding 70 and jump into arenas, you're going to be OWNED. BADLY. Captain obvious to the rescue.



I don't PvP because I suck at it. Then you are not familiar with this subject and its details.



The spirit of arenas is to compete against your peers and set yourself apart from them by.. well... beating the piss out of them. This would be true if the system did work as intended.



There is no other outcome. If there was, what would be the point? What? This almost qualifies as a pancake bunny statement.

[Velassra]

My point stands. (I don't PvP because I suck at it. I'm ok with that. I'll go farm gear in heroics and have fun my own way)

You are not winning and you are QQ'ing about it. From the "tone" of your posts, you seem to feel that everyone should "win" and get gear or rating or status or something. The spirit of arenas is to compete against your peers and set yourself apart from them by.. well... beating the piss out of them.

Yes, when you first ding 70 and jump into arenas, you're going to be OWNED. BADLY. Once you grind out a set of PVP gear, now you've got a chance at competing. (Either farming honor in BGs or farming Arena points or whatever).

1) You win and move up.
2) You lose and go down.

There is no other outcome. If there was, what would be the point?

Point is I'm gonna be a new 70 entering the arena. s4 geared Gladiators are not my peers. I should be, at the starter bracket facing an equal level of suck to myself.
I think you're completely missing the point. There is no true competition when Gladiator rated/S4 geared players are fighting a brand new ungeared 70 for either side.

The issue really is the way the arena is set up and I think it's deliberate on Blizzard's part. The fixes are easy, but they refuse to implement them. They NEED that certain segment to get their easy wins because they know the majority will keep plugging away at 2-8 wins/week in hopes of SOMEDAY having enough gear to compete. Meanwhile, that segment that exploits to make gold by powerleveling ratings is there every week, that segment that buys that powerlevel is there every week. The ones that really don't like it.....just don't play arena anymore. I'm sure Blizzard has lost very few subscriptions as a result of the arena garbage.

But don't try to sell me a bucket of shit and claim arena is true competition.

[magwo]

It's still a big business. It's called "carrying" and is even more profitable now with the additional rating requirements for gear pieces.

[wougoose]

Ok, so maybe I'm a bit off-base here. I'll admit I'm wrong if thats the case. :)

Does the system NOT match players by personal rating, as Blizzard claimed it would at the start of S4?I believe the personal rating is reset after joining a new team.

[Stabface]

What they promised, and never delivered, was gear matching... which would fix this problem entirely IMO.

[Velassra]

What they promised, and never delivered, was gear matching... which would fix this problem entirely IMO.

Not 100%, you'll still get the small segment of sadists that enjoys steamrolling undergeared and lesser skilled people for thrills. But I'd rather be outskilled and learn something from the experience than how the current system stands.

[pinotnoir]

When they form a new team it resets their rating to 1500.. So you have originally 2000+ rated players farming teams for gold at 1500 at a steady pace. So any new team has a really tough time starting. This is why I suggest a permanent personal rating. No team rating rest. If you change teams your rating is whats kept. You can make 100 teams but you will face other teams similar to your teams players avg rating. It would keep things fair.

[Kayley]

Idling 1500s is never any fun.

If it is as bad as you are suggesting, queue up at a different time (raise above the bracket and skip most of the re rollers). When I 'carried' people for gold (teehee) I never queued up during off-peak, games took too long to get started :P
It really does need to be fixed, I can see why some people get frustrated.

But until then
*jingles gold purse* :P

[Alemi]

When they form a new team it resets their rating to 1500.. So you have originally 2000+ rated players farming teams for gold at 1500 at a steady pace. So any new team has a really tough time starting. This is why I suggest a permanent personal rating. No team rating rest. If you change teams your rating is whats kept. You can make 100 teams but you will face other teams similar to your teams players avg rating. It would keep things fair.Hardly, this would likely make the problem worse.

Example: Full S4 Mage/Warrior/Pally at 2200 selling "powerleveling" through rating. A 1500 Priest and 1600 Warlock join the team. They will face teams w/ an average of 1940. Now, the 1500 and 1600 members will gain personal rating at +30 pts a game. -30 to the losing side becasue their personal rating is much lower than the teams rating.

Example: Warrior at 2k, team can't break 2k. He wants 50 pts for weapon shield. Leaves team, joins a new team with people fresh out of the BGs at 1500. Average personal rating 1600.
So he can earn 2,3 pts a game to get his last 50 pts, without really "earning" it in the 2k bracket.

The system is fine how it is. What they need to do is limit the number of teams you can join per week.

[Xzin]

I think 2,500 of Fur's 3,500 posts on this board are 2-line put-downs that avoid the real issue.

*cough*

[puppychow]

the whole wow PVP system is completely and utterly broke - instanced BGs that have no affect upon anything, dead world PVP, a completely nonfunctional arena system, a bizzare welfare epic system, etc. Warhammer has a very well done and thought out PVP system, and it is going to suck in a ton of WoW players which will force Blizzard to take notice, and eventually Blizzard will redesign so PVP is melded into the game from start to end in a cohesive fashion. Sadly its going to take 2-3 years at least and probably not until the next Blizzard MMO.

The original core design team of WoW really are PVE oriented guys and it shows. Hopefully they have hired new blood in the last few years that can shake things up.

[pinotnoir]

When they form a new team it resets their rating to 1500.. So you have originally 2000+ rated players farming teams for gold at 1500 at a steady pace. So any new team has a really tough time starting. This is why I suggest a permanent personal rating. No team rating rest. If you change teams your rating is whats kept. You can make 100 teams but you will face other teams similar to your teams players avg rating. It would keep things fair.Hardly, this would likely make the problem worse.

Example: Full S4 Mage/Warrior/Pally at 2200 selling "powerleveling" through rating. A 1500 Priest and 1600 Warlock join the team. They will face teams w/ an average of 1940. Now, the 1500 and 1600 members will gain personal rating at +30 pts a game. -30 to the losing side becasue their personal rating is much lower than the teams rating.

Example: Warrior at 2k, team can't break 2k. He wants 50 pts for weapon shield. Leaves team, joins a new team with people fresh out of the BGs at 1500. Average personal rating 1600.
So he can earn 2,3 pts a game to get his last 50 pts, without really "earning" it in the 2k bracket.

The system is fine how it is. What they need to do is limit the number of teams you can join per week.

If a 1500 and 1600 rated player can beat another team with the avg rating I say let them have the points. They may be facing 3 people rated 1940 in which case the new guys would prob get whipped. The point I am making is the people they face will be equally rated no matter if its a 2200 1500 1600 or 3 1940's. I dont see any problem with anyone advancing their personal rating if they can win.

[mrmcgee21]

I have run accross a lot of gladiator title teams since I hit 70 5 weeks ago and started my 5's team ( 4 shamans and a friend playing the pally ). Yes its hard, but I acknowledge that a lot had to do with skill. Consider those glad teams good practice for the future because you want to BEAT them eventually, and typically you lose few points against them ( I know sometimes they jsut started fresh at 1500 and that sucks ). Anyways I just want to say, after starting 5 weeks ago my team is now sitting firmly in the mid 1700 rating ( we have broke 1800 ) and i feel quiet competitive. So it can be done, yes its frustrating but competition can be that way.

Thext of crushridge ( currently playing the Ox's Oxaz, Oxay, Oxax, Oxaw, Oxan ) highest rating 1837 in 5's

[Stabface]

What they promised, and never delivered, was gear matching... which would fix this problem entirely IMO.

Not 100%, you'll still get the small segment of sadists that enjoys steamrolling undergeared and lesser skilled people for thrills. But I'd rather be outskilled and learn something from the experience than how the current system stands.

No, it would be 100% fixed.
Right now what we have is a rating system that is designed for player skill, but the game rules are heavily dependent on items.
To fix it we need to come up with a ranking system that either includes gear, or change the game rules so that gear isn't so heavily a factor.
So either gear matching, or, change the points calculation so that the better your gear is the less points you get.

I guarantee if you take pretty much *any* team that is stuck in 1400-1500-1600 area and fill them up with full S4 gear, they'll climb right up the rankings until they reach their natural ceiling based on their skill.

[Alemi]

Deleted my post. It just sounded bitchy and whiny.

[Mercurio]

Deleted my post. It just sounded bitchy and whiny.

Lol, I think my first post sounds a bit that way too, but I think I'm whining about something that is inherently unfair and broken so feel justified :P

[Klamor]

Less QQ more PewPew..... :thumbsup:

[Elektric]

Listen people, I have been playing at the top for weeks.

You don't know how frustrating it can be at the top. I don't call the arena que "average wait time" I call it "Average Time between Queue Dodges." Gear makes things easier but after weeks and weeks of finally having the gear to compete top teams dont requeue. So why would I not reset my team?

I finally got the number four team in my bg group to play me, more than once. They played my new reroll 6 times. The price you ask? I won 5 games and lost 1. They lost 30+30+29+28+27-2=142 pts. Did it feel good beating a great team? You bet. Did they have better gear, they sure did. I beat teams all the time in full S4. At 400 resilience and 800dmg it becomes a game of execution. Arena can be frustrating and sometimes it can feel like you cant win. The team I just described, I met a week earlier. My healer told me "I have been playing this game for 3 years, and trust me when I say they are unbeatable." Funny how a week with a focus macro set up changes things. Up'd my game and I was felt unbeatable.

Instead of worrying about Blizzard making the arena fair. Take the opportunity to lose game after game and figure out what you are doing wrong. The room for error with a shaman Quadbox is small. If you're not on top of your game even a sorry team can hand you a loss.

I have said it over and over, gear is not an excuse for losing. Take your losses learn from them and realize that as a Shaman Quadbox team your potential is unlimited. If you think just showing up with 4 shaman should produce wins, I have as much respect for you as the people that grief Ellay because they think theirs no skill in playing 4 toons. I would be willing to bet that if we put together a team of the top Quadboxers on this forum we could easily have a top 10 on any BG group.

In the arena stop measuring success by your rating and measure it by what your learning. With the right healer, time, gear, and practice you'll not be so pessimistic. What Ellay does is special, and instead of being frustrated with your rating realize, he's REALLY that good. Watch his videos, learn his play style, mimic him, and enjoy the sweet taste of success.

Keep your heads up, arena's broke but there's still fun to be had!

[merujo]

Instead of worrying about Blizzard making the arena fair. Take the opportunity to lose game after game and figure out what you are doing wrong.

qft

[Negative1]

An idea:
500g to leave a 5v5 team. Cost decreases by 100g each week. Why: It cuts into the profit of team carriers making it less profitable. However players stuck with a team and want to reset or find better players etc. are not penalized so badly. Think of it like the cost to reset talents... sure its an expense if you switch a lot but its very cheap if you change ever few months or so.

[Mercurio]

At 400 resilience and 800dmg it becomes a game of execution.

I was surprised at your numbers. Is that what you have? And you are one of the highest teams in your battlegroup? Wow.

My guys are at 436 resil and 896 dmg and I've been in the 1400s for over two months. I have 151 games played and my current rating is 1401. Same pally healer for all those games with similar gear.

I've watched all the Aelly vids a ton of times, have redone my macros a number of times to tweak and optimize, use an 8-button mouse so all the critical actions are instantly available, read this board for tips, etc. etc.

The only time I get that "sweet taste of success" is when we play teams that don't have 2+ gladiators.

Unfortunately, this doesn't happen very often.

[Elektric]

At 400 resilience and 800dmg it becomes a game of execution.

I was surprised at your numbers. Is that what you have? And you are one of the highest teams in your battlegroup? Wow.

My guys are at 436 resil and 896 dmg and I've been in the 1400s for over two months. I have 151 games played and my current rating is 1401. Same pally healer for all those games with similar gear.

I've watched all the Aelly vids a ton of times, have redone my macros a number of times to tweak and optimize, use an 8-button mouse so all the critical actions are instantly available, read this board for tips, etc. etc.

The only time I get that "sweet taste of success" is when we play teams that don't have 2+ gladiators.

Unfortunately, this doesn't happen very often.First ill address your questions. My current gear puts me at 989 dmg and 445 resilience. Im not the top team in my bg group, but Im ranked in the top 50 week after week, and the only teams that give me trouble are teams in the top 10. Full S4 teams, and Im not even there yet, but at this point I am willing to say gear is NOT the difference.

Are you running your set up with a focus? Can you're toons damage your focus target without targeting him with normal damage, like a lightning bolt or Earth shock? Can you control your "clones" so that they can turn if the target moves behind you?

Another thing I see as a possible area of improvement is your healer. I really discourage playing with the same healer over and over until you are ready to make a run at a real rating. There are several reasons, but the first is playing with the same class causes you to adapt your playstyle in such a way that you depend on his abilities to survive rather than using them as "Nice to Haves." Every healer has something else to offer, and as you learn to beat teams without needing to be bubbled, or have the opponent dispelled, you will see an improvement. Its small buts its significant. Another big one, if you miss your nuke (ie. You DONT kill him) you've just blown the whole Quadbox Shammy and a healer strat. Work on taking that first target down and teams will think twice before requeueing. If you are just blowing your nuke and not dropping your target, add in a lightning bolt and follow with an earth shock. THe first target must DIE.

I farm teams with 2+ Gladiators. In the end my real crediability will hopefully be in the form of some S4 shoulders and a "Gladiator" title. When you lose to these 2+ Gladiator teams how is the fight starting? All in all Mercurio, Id be interested in seeing what you are and aren't doing, maybe I'll learn something in the process of trying to give you advice that'll make me better. Good luck, and cheers mate!

[merujo]

Im not going to say some ppl dont have skills, or just can't control their toons good enough.

But i have to point this out: theres been some posts about, "my stats are these, and i can't get high ratings". "i have brutal gear, and can't kill ppl". "so i have 4 shamans and one pala, and we cant do nothing".

Im not trying to flame the thread or anything. Those quotes are just made up btw, im not here harrassing anyone. But i think some ppl just take it for granted, that u will own just by multiboxing.

I also know that each battlegroup is a different scenario. There might be harder and easier battlegroups.

Seeing Ellay's videos isn't everything. He won't play ur toons for u. If u let me add this, past 1600, for me, it doesnt looks any similar to Ellays fights. I had to start figuring out myself what and how to do with my partner. I wish i had them spread allover the bem's bridge at 1800+ lol. That doesnt happens, at all.
We may have the best stats in the world, but what if we face uber opponents with 4 seasons pvp experience? What if we arent skilled enough to compete?
Blizzard Broke Arenas, but not for me.

[Mercurio]

Are you running your set up with a focus? Can you're toons damage your focus target without targeting him with normal damage, like a lightning bolt or Earth shock?

I haven't done this, but was considering how to do this based on one of the threads you recently wrote. Basically, I think I need to add a key to my main to set his focus, then add a couple of macros to each toon to assist the party1focus and attack, so that I have a "normal" cast lightning bolt that assists the main (what I have set up now) and a "focus" cast lightning bolt that assists the main's focus. Is that right? Of course, I'd need to do this for my shocks and alpha as well. One question - when you start mashing one of your "focus" attack buttons, does the first cast continue going to the assist target due to server lag?


Can you control your "clones" so that they can turn if the target moves behind you?

Yes, been doing this from the very first arena battle on this team.


I really discourage playing with the same healer over and over until you are ready to make a run at a real rating.

I may need to try a different one out. I do, however, see a problem in getting one with my kind of gear (which should represent someone in the 1700s+) willing to join a team ranked 1402.


THe first target must DIE.

Yeah, this is tough. When fighting the multi-gladiator teams, it isn't so much the fact that there are 2+ extreme-geared players on the other team, it is that they are yelling at their 2-3 noob players on Vent, telling them exactly what to do to counter us. Mages/hunters pole hump (never staying in LOS for more than 1.5 seconds), longer cast players stay behind obstacles unless I'm completely turned around, constant drive-by fears that interrupt casts, horde racials to chain interrupt, etc. With all this going on, my alpha = dead target only works about half the time. The other half I've hit someone under some kind of immunity, interrupts cause my initial lightning bolt to just barely not get cast so the alpha hits a target that is not softened up, or I hit my alpha as the target is moving out of LOS, causing me to cast NS+EM, but not the chain lightning (meaning my next bolt is instant and powerful, but not on the target I want at the time I want).

As for my basic strategy, about half my games have been the wait and make them come to me strats when my totems are all up. These are 80% loss as people play LOS games until my healer is oom, then they all rush and own me. So we've been trying the rush strategy (was interesting to see Ellay post about it a few weeks after we'd been using it) and having a bit more success. However, good teams just run out of sight and play the LOS thing till I'm dead if they know what they are doing, so it = loss now much of the time as well.


Good luck, and cheers mate!

Thanks, I appreciate the inputs and any feedback you can give me.

[Elektric]

Are you running your set up with a focus? Can you're toons damage your focus target without targeting him with normal damage, like a lightning bolt or Earth shock? I haven't done this, but was considering how to do this based on one of the threads you recently wrote. Basically, I think I need to add a key to my main to set his focus, then add a couple of macros to each toon to assist the party1focus and attack, so that I have a "normal" cast lightning bolt that assists the main (what I have set up now) and a "focus" cast lightning bolt that assists the main's focus. Is that right? Of course, I'd need to do this for my shocks and alpha as well. One question - when you start mashing one of your "focus" attack buttons, does the first cast continue going to the assist target due to server lag?


Yes you need to add a key to your main "/focus target" and I use "/focus [target=targettarget]" for my clones. What does this bring to the table? The ability to cast normal spells and ensure they're healing can't keep up. A Lightning Chain Bolt combo provides about 8-12k of instant damage they have to make up for...only the best double healer teams cant keep up. I usually just go for the double Lightning bolt combo and then follow with the nuke. They die about 99% of the time.

As far as server lag there is less of a problem. Unlike using your target that you have to switch to quickly, there is no server lag when you start spamming kill cast on my "focus" (it doesnt change so the information server side can't experience lag). I can't emphasize enough how much of a difference this has made for me. Using the strat and saving the nuke for later in the fight has allowed me to destroy teams that have given me grief in the past.

Also using the "/cast [target=targettarget]" method has much less server lag, and I have been able to keep my main up during their CD blowing DPS. Server lag is much lower with this set up than the alt "/follow focus."

Last but not least don't be discouraged by your losses. Work on taking that 1st Target down and realize your success is directly tied to that. Also using a focus will allow you to nuke down the LoS humping Queers in the arena. They tend to think because you aren't targeting them, then its okay to stand in the open. Then BOOOM = gg.

PM with your success, it sounds like your just a couple changes away from the 1600s.

[magwo]

LoS humping Queers Ha.

[Drakkun]

My guys are at 436 resil and 896 dmg
2+ extreme-geared players on the other team Not sure why you think gear is a problem, you have the stats of the top arena players. I agree with Elektric, gear is not why you are losing.

[Elektric]

LoS humping Queers Ha.love your location, ROFL!

[magwo]

:)

You wouldn't believe how much time I spent chasing surviving druids and priests around pillars yesterday night. They're 5v2 or 5v1, still they feel the need to make it a 30 minute game.

[merujo]

if i let the druid survive, and be the last one, he will stealth and camp the game. i guess hes hoping i'll get a disconenct or something.

last time it was on BEM arena, the druid was hidden behind the wall on the end of one side of the bridge. i only spot him by having my sound turned to max and hearing the stealth sound. we couldnt locate him with the "find invisibility" diamonds that spawn.

they say multiboxing is lamme.

[Drakkun]

if i let the druid survive, and be the last one, he will stealth and camp the game. i guess hes hoping i'll get a disconenct or something.

last time it was on BEM arena, the druid was hidden behind the wall on the end of one side of the bridge. i only spot him by having my sound turned to max and hearing the stealth sound. we couldnt locate him with the "find invisibility" diamonds that spawn.

they say multiboxing is lamme.I have this happen a lot on my 3v3 shockadin team. We all quickly make a target macro with the last opponent's name followed with a judgment and run around spamming the macro. It usually pulls them out within a minute or two. Then we go to town laughing at them while they die to 3 holy pallies.

[mmcookies]

The problem with arena is that I don't think Blizzard knew what they wanted from it.

I believe the whole arena idea was probably lightly suggested, but then some marketing minded exec made it a must-have feature, hoping to duplicate the success of SC style competitive gaming. You can see some evidence of this in the way Blizzard has tried time and again to leverage arena with various competitive gaming bodies.

Long story short, the current arena implementation tries to straddle serious competition and casual accessibility, but creates a mutant mix that's rich for exploitation. If Blizzard intended to focus arena on serious competition, they would have implemented gear resets based on ratings or team disbandment without the sort of gear progression to match PVE content. Of course, now we have tournament realms set aside for serious business arena, which means normal arena will probably be left as a broken system, kinda like open ladder.

[merujo]

which means normal arena will probably be left as a broken system, kinda like open ladder.

yeah...it's millions playing a system that will only ban those exploiting when its super obvious. U can see everytime ppl with 90-1 records not even banned or anything. we're based on a good faith system, where no one will exploit, but that just doesnt happens. Thats what makes me sad about it.
One day ppl don't have rating for nothing, the other day they show up with weapons and shoulders...eh. It's completly a open ladder, on each realm the ammount of geared players by win-trading is huge, and blizzard just won't care enough.

[Drakkun]

Its nearly impossible to create a fair ladder system that can't be exploited. Just like its near impossible to create a software registration system that can't be cracked. If it was easy then you would see it from the start.

In fact, Blizzard has stated that they have a PhD (not sure the area of focus, but something to do with math and statistics) on staff that is analyzing the arena and pvp systems. Supposedly this person is doing a lot of work to try to find a balanced system. Hopefully, we will see some of it in place with WoTLK.

[Mokoi]

What they promised, and never delivered, was gear matching... which would fix this problem entirely IMO.

so everyone has to Que naked and then oput their gear on in the arena? that doesn't solve much

[Dominian]

What they promised, and never delivered, was gear matching... which would fix this problem entirely IMO.

so everyone has to Que naked and then oput their gear on in the arena? that doesn't solve much

Most likley it would take your highest helm (by item level) and one for each slot and divide it to get a average item level on your items... Wich means that if you have good pve gear you would face people with good pvp gear. An option to avoid this is that IF you put the items in the bank they wouldnt count..

[merujo]

how bout gearing greys, and change items while inside arenas ? haha!

[zanthor]

At 400 resilience and 800dmg it becomes a game of execution.When BOTH sides are @ 400 resil and 800dmg it becomes a game of execution.
When the opponent is sporting those stats and has restarted their team to put their 2000+ geared selves into a 1500 bracket fight, then it's not a game, it's just execution.

Another solution to this is to simply make the gear have PR ratings, not to buy, but to EQUIP. If you have S4 gear with a PR needed of 1950 and you drop below that, it's the equivalent of the item becoming broken until you regain that rating. This of course wouldn't stop the amazingly skilled and experienced players from owning 1500 teams...

Seasonal based PR is the solution, skilled players will rise to the top, and the top will have plenty of action. Right now the cheesedick pvpers who are just doing it to make money sell their skill and live in the 1500 bracket owning people who have no real chance against them. This creates a vacuume of competition @ 1900+ where they belong. Fix that, and the rest falls into place.

[Steph]

Team rating should be removed and the average personal rating used instead. At the very least as far as the calculation of the win/loss points is concerned.

Imagine a chess Grandmaster joining a local village chess club, instantly dropping his elo rating from 2500 to 1000. He then proceeds to spank everyone in the club and totally destroy the club members' ratings. Compare this with the same games played without a falsified rating, and you see intact village chess player ratings. Unfortunately, the former is the situation we have in WoW arenas at the moment. The later is what I would consider fair. Arena losses that should cost 5-6 points are costing 15-18 points, because the team rating does not reflect the teams potential, but is used to calculate the win/loss points anyway.

I appreciate that high rated teams don't want only a handful of opponents and long queue time. For that reason the current team rating shenanigans might be useful, and would not necessarily need to be changed, but the the average personal rating should be used instead of the team rating for the win/loss points calculation.