WOLK and shaman team future (totems)

[NoobShammy]

Ok seems that they are removing pretty much all stacking abilites of totems...

Totem of Wrath - New totem that will not stack
Healing stream - now combined with mana steam (no way they are going to let this one stack either)

The question is what is the point in having a 5 shaman squad anymore???

[Vyndree]

You're telling me the ONLY reason why shaman are popular is that a 41 point talent that ONLY is used for PvE and a minor HoT that happened to stack but only helps when you're taking minor AoE damage?

Not to mention the fact that... ToW stacked as a 3% crit and 3% hit buff... where the hit was largely useless to ele shammies (loaded with +hit talents). They buff it for spelldamage (which is HUGE), but remove the stacking ability... that doesn't mean it's a nerf. It's still a buff. Nobody would take ToW earlier (nearly everyone went for NS).

Also, healing stream totem was largely ineffective with elemental shaman, due to their minimal amount of +healing. Now there's +spellpower, so you'll be wearing "resto gear" and laying a healing stream that ticks with a bit more "oomph". But, because it doesn't stack anymore at its pitiful tick, that means that its now-scaling-with-gear tick is underpowered because it's not stacking?


You need to put things into perspective. Both are largely BUFFS for shaman. You can spec ONE shaman ToW get better talents on the rest, and still do decent DPS with searing totems WHILE gaining the benefit of additional spelldamage % from ToW. Furthermore, you can let just ONE scaling healing stream buff stick, while using disease or staggered poison cleanse totem remove those "specced-to-increase-dispell-resist" rogue poisons.

[Naysayer]

You're telling me the ONLY reason why shaman are popular is that a 41 point talent that ONLY is used for PvE and a minor HoT that happened to stack but only helps when you're taking minor AoE damage?Yes. If grounding totem and tremor totem don't stack, shamanx5 pvp and pve is dead. Those are the keys that make the group work.

[Dominian]

Totem of wraith?

Are you sure you dont mean totem of wrath? I cant any wraith totems on Thott atleast..

[NoobShammy]

hihi nope not at all but I have to say that for many new boxers (me included 60 now woohoo) that this one totem really helps out with the lack of gear till outlands.

[Naysayer]

Totem of wraith?

Are you sure you dont mean totem of wrath? I cant any wraith totems on Thott atleast..Do you really think he meant "wraith"?

[Vyndree]

tremor totem don't stack

Tremor totem is on a pulse system. It likely will continue stacking since the spellpower changes do not affect it.

Grounding totem stacking was overpowered. As a shaman boxer I admit it. But I'm not afraid to put grounding on a castsequence, and due to the mechanics of grounding I doubt it will be nerfed. Even if you lay 2 groundings, and only 1 is effective, when the first dies all of a sudden -- hey, only one grounding totem! The second one will become effective. Making it essentially the same.

[Vyndree]

this one totem really helps out with the lack of gear till outlands.

You can't GET ToW until your 50's. It's only 12 levels until water shield ('http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=24398') at level 62.

Furthermore, with the 2.3 patch changes to decrease 20-60 leveling time, and the 300% RAF experience bonus (if you choose), you really have nothing to complain about. Try drinking once in a while. Mana spring never stacked to begin with, so there's no nerf there.

Besides, you'll have flametongue weapon for extra +damage so you can kill faster, so you don't have to "suffer" through the terribleness that is 50-62 elemental shaman leveling.


Oh, and speaking of mana... It's not like this isn't MORE overpowered than ToW...
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=51470

Your spell critical strikes grant your party Elemental Oath, reducing the mana cost of spells and abilities by your party by 2% and increasing critical strike damage by 2%. Stacks up to 3 times. Lasts 15 seconds.

You know, because it's on a tier BEFORE ToW.

[Naysayer]

tremor totem don't stack

Tremor totem is on a pulse system. It likely will continue stacking since the spellpower changes do not affect it.

Grounding totem stacking was overpowered. As a shaman boxer I admit it. But I'm not afraid to put grounding on a castsequence, and due to the mechanics of grounding I doubt it will be nerfed. Even if you lay 2 groundings, and only 1 is effective, when the first dies all of a sudden -- hey, only one grounding totem! The second one will become effective. Making it essentially the same.Well, consider that they said they don't want stacking and they only allow your shaman to use one pulse counter even though there are 5 dropped in range.

Your example of grounding totem is the same as it works now and is stacking.

[Vyndree]

Well, consider that they said they don't want stacking and they only allow your shaman to use one pulse counter even though there are 5 dropped in range.

In that case I'm not complaining given the compensation talents ('http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=51479')... ;)

Besides, instead of staggering why not just increase the totem range by first doing a spread-out and then lay all the tremors? It'll still break the fears.

[Naysayer]

this one totem really helps out with the lack of gear till outlands.

You can't GET ToW until your 50's. It's only 12 levels until water shield ('http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=24398') at level 62.

Furthermore, with the 2.3 patch changes to decrease 20-60 leveling time, and the 300% RAF experience bonus (if you choose), you really have nothing to complain about. Try drinking once in a while. Mana spring never stacked to begin with, so there's no nerf there.

Besides, you'll have flametongue weapon for extra +damage so you can kill faster, so you don't have to "suffer" through the terribleness that is 50-62 elemental shaman leveling.From 51 to 70 stacking ToW was decent and does help. You've got to be crazy to think it doesn't and he shouldn't be a little upset about losing it.

[NoobShammy]

I take it also that elmental oath does not stack either correct? That itself would offset if not surpass totem of wrath.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=51470#comments

Your spell critical strikes grant your party Elemental Oath, reducing the mana cost of spells and abilities by your party by 2% and increasing critical strike damage by 2%. Stacks up to 3 times. Lasts 15 seconds

[Naysayer]

Well, consider that they said they don't want stacking and they only allow your shaman to use one pulse counter even though there are 5 dropped in range.

In that case I'm not complaining given the compensation talents ('http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=51479')... ;)

Besides, instead of staggering why not just increase the totem range by first doing a spread-out and then lay all the tremors? It'll still break the fears.Astral shift is great, i agree.

Because the whole point of staggering them was to reduce the time feared to 1.5 seconds or less.

It's the stacking of grounding totems that's the killer. Whether it stays or goes will determine whether shaman 5's stays or goes. Dropping them in sequence won't work nearly as well since you'll be losing too much time to the global cooldown.

If they remove stacking grounding totems I would consider that a direct nerf to multiboxers.

[Vyndree]

From 51 to 70 stacking ToW was decent and does help. You've got to be crazy to think it doesn't and he shouldn't be a little upset about losing it.


Oh, and speaking of mana... It's not like this isn't MORE overpowered than ToW...
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=51470

Quoted Your spell critical strikes grant your party Elemental Oath, reducing the mana cost of spells and abilities by your party by 2% and increasing critical strike damage by 2%. Stacks up to 3 times. Lasts 15 seconds.


You know, because it's on a tier BEFORE ToW.

Ok, so let's say I only 4-box...

I've got one specced ToW, and the rest not. That's 3% crit and let's ignore the fact that it also buffs damage (via crit).

I've now got a brand new spiffy Elemental Oath (on the LO tier) that increases damage (let's ignore that bit again) and reduces mana cost of all spells and abilities (including emergency heals) by up to 6%.

Every time I crit, the mana cost of my next TWO spells is decreased by 40%. Now the math is a little complicated, but we'll just assume best case scenario and that you don't double-crit (since you know, your gear sux so bad pre-BC). If you have a 3% crit chance, and a 40% *2 = 80% mana reduction when you crit, that's an effective (80% / 100) * 3 = 2.4% mana cost reduction on spells.

2.4% mana redux from ONE tow + 6% mana reduction from Elemental Oath = 8.4% mana redux for best-case scenario.


Now let's do the same for 4x stacked ToW...

2.4% * 4 totem of wraths = 9.6% mana redux from stacked ToW.



Now let's look at the damage increase from both.
4x ToW = 12% crit * 100% increase in damage each crit = 12% increase in damage.

New ToW + Elemental Oath 3 stack = 3% crit * 100% increase in damage each crit + 6% ToW flat damage + 6% crit Elemental Oath 3stack * 100% increase in damage each crit = 15% increase in damage.


So you're trading -1.2% delta in mana efficiency for 3% damage increase....

... and this is a problem that must be QQed about?

The key here is "balance". They can't BUFF our existing talents/abilities without "DEBUFFING" existing talents/abilities. This sure looks balanced enough for me, considering the mana efficiency issue being touted about here only exists from level 50 (ToW talent minimum) to level 60 for itemization, and 62 for water shield.


There's a reason why most of us don't fill out Unrelenting Storm. For one, it sucks, and two -- we really don't suffer from mana issues. Most of the PvP shammies don't even TAKE ToW because it was so WEAK of a talent. Now it's actually WORTH speccing -- oh, AND it buffs and entire RAID. They're not going to design things specifically for us multiboxers, you know -- but even so, it's not a BAD nerf. It's just BALANCED compared to the overwhelming BUFFS we received.


I take it also that elmental oath does not stack either correct?

I'm assuming it does not effectively stack, since it specifically mentions "stacks up to 3 times".

[Suvega]

LOL!??

OR its because you wear mail, have Lightning CL NS Lightning + shock and can instagib?
or 4 heroisms
Or you can heal
or ????

This is a very shortsighted argument

[Naysayer]

I think you're overreacting to his reaction, calling him a QQer and all that lamesauce. He just got a little bummed about ToW and all it's current goodness going bye-bye for 10 levels or so.

I'm concerned about stacking tremor and grounding going away, if it does.

[Naysayer]

LOL!??

OR its because you wear mail, have Lightning CL NS Lightning + shock and can instagib?
or 4 heroisms
Or you can heal
or ????

This is a very shortsighted argumentrofl

[Dominian]

Totem of wraith?

Are you sure you dont mean totem of wrath? I cant any wraith totems on Thott atleast..Do you really think he meant "wraith"?

"Totem of Wraith - New totem that will not stack"

TOW is not a new totem it just changed, so YES i wasnt sure what he ment?

[Naysayer]

Totem of wraith?

Are you sure you dont mean totem of wrath? I cant any wraith totems on Thott atleast..Do you really think he meant "wraith"?

"Totem of Wraith - New totem that will not stack"

TOW is not a new totem it just changed, so YES i wasnt sure what he ment?There's a new version of ToW, so that's why he said new.

[Dominian]

no he said:

Totem of Wrath - New totem that will not stack

[Naysayer]

no he said:

Totem of Wrath - New totem that will not stackYes, the new one won't stack.

[Leyuna]

I think that from a pure pvp point of view this dont affect any much since most of you are using NS right? (im not a pvp'er myself, cant stand the fact that it is so gear based :) )

from a pve view, sure it sucks when you just hit lvl 50 and get the uber totem, i love being able to hit higher lvl mobs without so many resist, so im gonna miss the +hit (yes there is talents with +hit but i like that i can use the points for something else).
Im guessing that we have to adapt to use more different kind of totems, Flametongue Totem with the new +dmg, start to use searing/magma totem some more (this might actully be good), ect.

my biggest concern is will my little girls still be able to run instances without a tank and/or a dedicated healer or do i have to get a tank and a healer...

but we will see, im sure that we will find solutions fairly fast, because we got a great community and people are very good at helping one another, coming with suggestion ect, so i dont have too big concerns, some but not many.

[Mokoi]

in all honesty, I am bummed about the totem not stacking.

I raid with my guys, and I often stack my group, even in black Temple with my totems and a moonkin or spriest.

for those of you who have never raided anything other than kara, I can see why you wouldn't care. when you bring 4 totems of wrath to a progression raid, life changes. Now, that being said, they still buffed the hell out of shamans but the totem not stacking is a dissapointment among great improvements. However, you HAVE to understand that it is not ONLY our totems which are now raid wide, it is a MULTITUDE of amazing things which will be raid wide. Spriest anywhere in the raid means uber manas for everyone. that in intself is amazing for us, as an elemental shaman we need as much mp5 as we can get to dps effectively.

anyway for pvp who cares, nobody uses ToW for pvp anyway, but for raiding, if there are others who do it regularly with a raid who does BT and Hyjal every week, this is a bit of a bummer. Balanced with a ton of great upgrades though.

[TheBigBB]

I'm not sure if I understand how a grounding totem could change. Groundings don't stack. They each absorb one spell and then go away. You couldn't take away its ability to "stack" since it doesn't exist.

Anyway, I think a shaman team's draw for me was more about them being pretty good at everything and being able to rez, heal, wear a shield, and ranged DPS. So as long as they can still do that, they'll always be a great boxing team.

[Drizzit]

They each absorb one spell and then go away. You couldn't take away its ability to "stack" since it doesn't exist.

Don't they sort of stack? I mean when you have tremor totem up it doesn't show as a buff, but when you have you grounding up it shows as a buff. I don't think they can fix the tremor totem too much unless they code it so that only 1 tremor can be out and if someone casts another one the first ones goes away (which i think will be a pain programming, could of things can happen if it isn't programed correctly). If you can stack grounding then i think shams will be in more demand. Think about it the grounding can now be raid wide. You get 10 in your group and no mob can cast non aoe spells on your raid.

[Xar]

For me the appeal of all-shaman group was exactly what Suvega mentioned... mail armor, heals, self rez, multiple heroisms, burst damage (my previous experience being affliction lock). I did have ToW for part of my levelling but respecced NS at 70 when I started hitting the BG's for S2 gear and while I've missed it and somewhat ok geared now it hasn't been good enough to pull me back to respec, and that would only be my second ever respec on the shaman, lol 5g each, so the cost is not the issue. I use my death ray (EM + NS) when I instance all the time to take down multiple casters in MgT regular.

I think all of this concern about Wrath when it's not even out yet is just pre-expansion jitters, lol. I remember all kinds of crazy worrying before TBC came out too. Seems like Blizzard is making wow even more fun (and somewhat "easier") in Wrath that I don't think we have to worry about it so until after we all get to 80 and see how it plays.

[Vyndree]

The question is what is the point in having a 5 shaman squad anymore???


I think you're overreacting to his reaction, calling him a QQer and all that lamesauce. He just got a little bummed about ToW and all it's current goodness going bye-bye for 10 levels or so.


There's a difference between being bummed about a single totem and being bummed about an entire class.

ToW stacking DID get nerfed. But it ALSO got buffed. Now, if ToW were the same as the old ToW (i.e. 3% hit / 3% crit) and we didn't get talents to compensate for the fact that it will no longer stack, then maybe I could reasonably see a complaint about that particular 41/0/20 spec -- EVEN THEN alot of us shammy teams didn't spec ToW in the first place (going for NS instead) -- I did just fine in PvE without ToW. So it would only impact LEVELING shamans, which by far is not "the point" of having a 5 shaman team.

That's what I'm pointing out -- there's no sense in claiming that the sky is falling for shaman teams when you don't take the big picture into account. I mean, even look at the reaction in the thread -- people started panicking (granted, about Tremor and Grounding which are WAYYYY more justifiable for concern than ToW) when someone cried doom and gloom for shaman comps. If you think logically and look at the big picture, it's actually not so bad.

It seems everyone has forgotten about our shiny new bottom tier talent thunderstorm in the panic as well -- finally, something worth not taking NS for! You can't look at our new trees and tell me that the "nerfs" we're getting aren't being balanced out by things like Thunderstorm, Elemental Oath, and Astral Shift.

I'm just trying to put things into a logical perspective -- math seems to help with that (and I hope my math was accurate, I was doing this while leveling up my lowbies in HFP).

Sorry I came off a bit harsh about it, but he happened to critize my favorite class. ;)

[Talamarr]

You people and your long winded arguments. I've had to pee since before I started reading and just got finished. For the love of my bladder, in the future, just say QQ less n00b!!111!!one!

GOSH!

...bio...

[Suvega]

in all honesty, I am bummed about the totem not stacking.

I raid with my guys, and I often stack my group, even in black Temple with my totems and a moonkin or spriest.

for those of you who have never raided anything other than kara, I can see why you wouldn't care. when you bring 4 totems of wrath to a progression raid, life changes. Now, that being said, they still buffed the hell out of shamans but the totem not stacking is a dissapointment among great improvements. However, you HAVE to understand that it is not ONLY our totems which are now raid wide, it is a MULTITUDE of amazing things which will be raid wide. Spriest anywhere in the raid means uber manas for everyone. that in intself is amazing for us, as an elemental shaman we need as much mp5 as we can get to dps effectively.

anyway for pvp who cares, nobody uses ToW for pvp anyway, but for raiding, if there are others who do it regularly with a raid who does BT and Hyjal every week, this is a bit of a bummer. Balanced with a ton of great upgrades though.

Honestly if you're in BT/MH then the only thing you bring to the group is the 3% crit. That 3% hit is useless because any magic DPS by that time is EASILY hitcapped.
Thus the new totem (3% crig 6%dmg), is a bonus. A Very nice bonus :)

If you were stacking all the totems in one group for like 12% crit, then your shaman were being wasted :( Horrible raid synergy. Heroisms wasted, and crit being wasted on 1 non-shaman (I.e. one real dps). So I'm assuming your shaman were spread out across 2-3 groups.

[Drizzit]

You people and your long winded arguments. I've had to pee since before I started reading and just got finished. For the love of my bladder, in the future, just say QQ less n00b!!111!!one!

GOSH!

...bio...lol i know that feeling. I have ADHD and really really slow reading (great a math though) so it is really bad for me. Half the time i read the same sentence over again, then the mind wonders and when i finished i have no clue what i just read. I remember my old job my boss had us read articles in a meeting, well everyone reads fast (i mean they all read for hobbies and speed read), so the first time i read the article and everyone was waiting for me. The second time and every time after that i just stared at the paper and turn the page when everyone else did. DAM my math skills :(

[Vyndree]

i love being able to hit higher lvl mobs without so many resist

Shaman already get a uber high +hit rate from talents alone ('http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit#Increasing_spell_hit'), and much of the mail elemental gear is littered with hit as well (which is pretty dumb, imo). Shaman (especially draenei) have the highest +spellhit available IN THE GAME ('http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit#Spell_hit_rating_caps_for_level_70') -- and that's not even COUNTING it stacking.

For example:
Elemental Precision (which you always take for PvE for threat) - 6% (I see the +hit was nerfed to 3% but threat component increased)
Nature's Guidance - 3% (none in WoTLK)

One single pre-WoTLK ToW: 3%

In Burning Crusade:
40/0/21 Ele Shaman +hit: 9%
41/0/20 Ele Shaman +hit: 12%
41/0/20 Ele Shaman stacked x4: 21%
41/0/20 Ele Shaman stacked x5: 24%
(Add 1% for draenei)

Add

In WoTLK:
Single Ele shaman (min level for Elem Precision): 3%
(Add 1% for draenei)

+hit required to hit a mob 3 levels above you (i.e. RAID) 99% of the time: 14%
+hit required to hit a mob 2 levels above you 99% of the time: 5%
+hit required to hit a mob 1 level above you 99% of the time: 3%


So sure, we have a raid nerf here. But, at the same time, you will now *gasp!* make USE of all that +hit rating on your gear (that is, if you plan on fighting mobs more than 1 level higher than you and can't kill it with over 1% miss -- which is the lowest you can possibly get). Even as a lowbie you can find gear with +hit as low as level 17 ('http://www.wowhead.com/?item=1156') and starting ('http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23401') zone ('http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24346') quests. Sure, why would you EVER take it over straight +damage when you're LEVELING, but if your argument was honestly that you intended to regularly kill mobs 2+ levels above you and missing once or twice is deal-breaking....

And to put things into perspective... How much +hit do you need as a level 60 to get 1% +hit? 8 +hit rating = 1% hit. That's all.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Im lost a bit... ok ToW dosnt stack, that just means the offensive abilities is a bit less... no big deal for me anyway.

Ok grounding didnt stack in the first place so no change.



Now what about the tremor totem, anti fear is critical in pvp. So what has changed there? Previously they were on more then one timer (?), but now they are not? I mean you don't need more then one anyway, well I suppose having them go off more often the every 2 seconds would be nice but... So anyway you still can't be feared for more then 2 seconds right? And as pointed out if you put more then one up and one gets destroyed you are still good.

[Talamarr]

HAHA, I blame this nerf on Sam. Blizzard saw raid wide stacking of 25 x ToW and visions of Arthas being one-shotted prompted immediate action.

[Drizzit]

well I suppose having them go off more often the every 2 seconds would be nice but... So anyway you still can't be feared for more then 2 seconds right? And as pointed out if you put more then one up and one gets destroyed you are still good.

The thing is that the tremor totem has a range where is can break fear. If you are out side the range when it ticks then you are still feared. Fear can last for more then 2 seconds, i was feared yesterday and it lasted 6/7 seconds. What can happen is lets say a warrior is just rushed you and is going to fear you, right before he fears your totem ticks so now you have 2 seconds before it ticks again. The warrior fears and you go flying every where. You run out side the totem range when it ticks again, now after 6/7 seconds your toons are all over the place. What you do is stagger your totems so the most that you can be feared for is .5 seconds, which worse case just make your guys face different directions (which all you do is hit the follow button then they face the same way).

[Sam DeathWalker]

Ok that kinda clears it up. Some extra micro managment, big deal. Ok so basically none is going to reroll their shaman over these so called nerfs. And considering Thunderstorm, seems a small price to pay. Hey thunderstrom isnt on one timer is it? And hope that warstomp isn't on the same timer ... well I have to look allt hat up I guess.

[mlwhitt]

I don't see the changes spelling doom for Shaman groups in any way. Yeah I would be worried about about grounding totems not stacking. Though as already brought up technically I don't see how you could "unstack" them. But even if Blizzard changed it where only one could be out at a time, all you are going to have to do is do a round robin drop on them instead of just dropping 5 at one time. Not really that big of deal.

Heck even if Blizzard completely did away with grounding totems period you still have 5 x Earth Shock which is still one of, if not the best interupts in the game. So I really don't think we should be QQing so much about ToW not stacking.

The ones that cry about ToW not stacking are the same ones that most likely would cry if suddenly Moonkin Auras started stacking or Trueshot Aura for example. Let's face it like Moonkin and Trueshot we can't really think honestly that Blizzard ever intended them to stack. Blues have already confirmed that this was not intentional.

And look at it this way, you have even more reason now to drop 4 Searing Totems in your rotation, or even move to a 4 Elem Sha / 1 Bal Druid makeup.

The only nerf that I could see that would really hurt boxing shaman is making it so we couldn't have staggard Tremor Totems. Even so there are plenty of other mb group makeups that have to live with fearbombs relying only on trinkets or fear ward (not that fear ward is really worth the hassle with it's cooldown).

Bottom line is like V said. We aren't really losing too much from the stacking nerf when you add in new talents such as Elemental Oath. As she caculated you are looking at a potential of 3% damage increase right? Still sounds like a buff to me.

We just have to think outside the box.

[Mac]

But even if Blizzard changed it where only one could be out at a time, all you are going to have to do is do a round robin drop on them instead of just dropping 5 at one time. Not really that big of deal.

Heck even if Blizzard completely did away with grounding totems period you still have 5 x Earth Shock which is still one of, if not the best interupts in the game.
I like dropping all 5 grounding totems before a pull with casters in a group, having to put them on round robin will add gcd cycles and unwelcome totem micromanagement.

Many times the casters are out of range of shocks, so that means you have to be more careful when you are in agro range of other groups in order to get in range to shock, or you have to backtrack to range pull the casters so you can get them up into shock range and not pull another group. As it is, I would just heal throught the damage and range them down as it is easier then repositioning to try to get shocks in. I like the convenience of not having to do that as it is now, changing that by unstacking grounding totems will be an annoying change.

We will get what we get and learn to deal with it, or do something else. I'm not going to be too concerned about anything until we see the final product.

[Arryth]

I'm hoping for the best out of it but preparing for the worst. I have two full 5 box teams on stonemaul at the moment, and am making 2 more.. I new mage set (I stupidly chose troll on the first one), and a Druid set. I may revive my lock group also, if the new stuff coming looks good. God I love the referel system... Buy some new cheap accounts, transfer over 70's, and begin leveling at warp speed. Sure it costs a bit, but the time savings is huge, and you can level tons of characters in the 90 days, and save up the level grants for a later class if you like. Though I need to dump the tow in favor of NS soon. I love it for instances, but I'm getting owned hard in arena due to not having my instant cast death bolt.

[Rowdysattva]

I don't mind tow not stacking. It is a bummer but it will be fine by me.

I also love to play multiple shammy for totem synergy and stacking. The synergy can still be there but losing some of the stacking will be a sad day for my fun at least. I really like the stacking of hs totems.

I am a lot more concerned with possible no stacking on tremor and grounding. Those seemed like two combos that were the bread and butter of shammy mojo and losing them would be a big hit. I am not saying they couldn't be played around or dealt with. Not being able to stack grounding and tremor does seem like a boxing nerf. I know it will also hit all those who have multi shammy in group... but i bet that is mostly boxing.

Using a spread out macro and tremors? How does that strike people for ups and downs and viability? I have never tried it yet. Fearing boxing groups is the main attack against them and it is a huge attack if not defended against (imo).

[mlwhitt]

Well if Blizzard is stopping Tremor and Grounding stacking to help offset problems with QQs about Shaman boxing I could kind of understand why they are going this route. That being said I don't think they are doing it just as a play against boxing. It is just that as boxers we understand how important (not vital luckily) that stacking of Tremor and Grounding totems are. Another thing that I think may lend itself to showing that Blizzard rather us to limit grounding totems in favor of Earth Shock is the fact that they are throwing us a bone to improve ES usage by increasing range (See Storm, Earth and Fire talent).

I do feel in someways that a nerf of Tremor totem is somewhat justified in order to offset so much QQ by the rest of the population. We all know the number one defense against a decent multibox team is a fearbomb. As it is right now Shaman are one of the hardest groups to fear bomb thanks to TT. If they were to limit TT usability solo players would stand more of a chance to get around the so called multibox advantage of focus fire.

I may be rambling here but even though I don't think they are purposely nerfing the built-in shaman multibox advantage they may see a way to nerf some of the so called over powerness of a multiboxed shaman team.

Either way I believe that Shaman will continue to be the number one chose of boxers because of all the other advantages like Ankh, shield equip, mail armor, and overall totem synergy.

The biggest things that I see happening to Shaman multibox teams in the future is:

1) Limiting the ability to avoid fear bomb by limiting TT stacking.
2) Increase the need for a tank to be mixed in with a shaman group due to some lose of synergy between stacking and kiting ability.
3) changes with the way we play. While we complain about the nerfs think about stuff like Thunderstorm and such. We are gaining that, hex and many other advantages we don't yet fully understand.

[Draz]

LOL?!?!? or your defending your girlfriend or the arguement was correct. Which is it?! See what I did there?! LEss QQ more PEWPEW!!!~ONE!!!!
LOL!??

OR its because you wear mail, have Lightning CL NS Lightning + shock and can instagib?
or 4 heroisms
Or you can heal
or ????

This is a very shortsighted argument

[Vyndree]

defending your girlfriend

I wasn't aware I needed defending.

All of my arguments are based on facts and numbers -- not baseless personal attacks. ;) Attacking a personal's personal life for lack of a logical counter-argument is more of a general forum troll tactic.



Suvega is allowed his personal opinions just as I am allowed mine. I don't lead him around like a pet, nor does he do to me. Take a look at the bear tanking thread -- he has a very differing opinion from mine, and we still get along just fine.

If you want to disagree with his opinion, then do so. But don't call him (for lack of a better phrase) p*ssy whipped. It's an insulting to me as it is to him, and doesn't make you seem like a very nice person either. Disagree with his opinion, argue with facts, and leave the personal attacks to the WoW forums.

[Stabface]

There's no other class that can Heal, DPS, and provide as much utility all rolled up into one package like the Shaman. Paladin is pretty close but not as good for boxing since it's melee DPS. Boomkin is pretty good, and might be as good or better in WotLK... hard to say as nothing is nailed down. Priest is pretty good too but just doesn't have the survivability and utility, or the facemelt burst capability.

[Vyndree]

Boomkin is pretty good, and might be as good or better in WotLK...

I'd say Boomkins never became as popular as shaman due to their lack of cross-synergy with other boomkins and the fact that the anti-druid ability IS fear -- which also happens to be a big anti-multiboxer ability.

That being said I think we'll see a few more mix/match boomkin+shaman groups since they buff each other so well (particularly with the new boomkin nature debuff and haste-on-crit aura).

[mlwhitt]

Lets look at the alternatives here when we talk about a 5box team of the same class.

What classes are able to heal, DPS and have ranged attacks (pretty much the stable abilities needed for any 5 box team consisting of just one class)?

By this excluding melee classes and classes that can only heal themselves or their pets you just have: Shaman, Druids and Priest.

Now then we all know that Priest do not have survivability of Shaman with shields / mail gear nor Moonkin Druids. So we are down to just two classes that can sucessfully run instances based on class abilities and the ability to DPS quick enough to avoid need for a tank.

As much as I love my Moonkin they just don't match up to the abilities of Elemental Shaman when it comes to being able to 5 man a same level instance without a tank. At least until 80 Moonkin can't OOC Rez, so that is one ding against them. They don't have any way to offtank bosses like Shaman can with Earth Elementals. Until Wrath they can't CC in instances other than Cyclone (very limited) unlike Shaman can with Stoneclaw. They can't kite as effectively either since until Wrath roots only work outdoors, vs. Shaman being able to drop Earthbind.

While Moonkin get the nice Armor boost, they can't wear shields. Shields + Mail gear > than Moonkin Armor boost.

Also the ability to Ankh also tips the favor towards Shaman.

As you notice for the most part the items that have been brought up as being possible nerfs to Shaman haven't even been mentioned in this. Even without ToW, TT and GTs Shaman still would be the best of the best when it comes to the ability to run an instance with 5 of the same class.

[HTeam]

A 5 man group of shaman with 5 grounding totems means between 5 and 25 spell immunities. I think they're looking at it and deciding that they really didn't intend to offer so much possibility.

We've seen them do similar things like the debuffs to blessing of protection, ice block and the priest shield. Chaining/stacking immunities is something they've tried to balance against.

Also, it's fairly obvious that stacking shaman is by far the most popular class to stack in a group. Go ahead and tell me this isn't because they are the most powerful.

The other issue here is that the "dispel" mechanism for totems is awkward at best.

[mlwhitt]

Well they are certainly powerful. Personally even if we couldn't have a single totem to drop I still feel that Shaman would be one of the best choices from a 5 box team of the same class. Shaman just have so many useful tools at their disposal even outside what totems bring. Ankhs, water breathing, water walking, astral recall, chain healing, chain lightning, ghost wolf, ability to wear shields and mail gear. All of these things are huge pluses for the class as a whole.

So I think we have to keep all of those in mind when we think about any totem nerfs we may forsee coming this way. Even without a single totem Shaman would still likely be a top pick for boxing, in my opinion.

[Naysayer]

I'm not sure if I understand how a grounding totem could change. Groundings don't stack. They each absorb one spell and then go away. You couldn't take away its ability to "stack" since it doesn't exist.

Anyway, I think a shaman team's draw for me was more about them being pretty good at everything and being able to rez, heal, wear a shield, and ranged DPS. So as long as they can still do that, they'll always be a great boxing team.Well, all they have to do is add some form of cooldown before totems can reapply to your character or something of that nature. I have no idea though how they plan to change it (or even tremor). I hope they don't either so that they don't bother and we can keep our groundings.

Tremor totem is getting changed for sure, they don't want anymore stacking of totems, grounding totems will likely get changed as well. I'm only hoping that shamnx5 can still do the future heroics, that's the whole reason I rolled them as I don't care to multiclass with my pally, mage, lock, priest, 70's... I don't enjoy multiclass boxing because I don't like to play each of them at half-ass to get the job done.

[accretion]

Remember one thing, folks: Shamans are still the least-played class ('http://www.warcraftrealms.com/quickstats.php') in WoW. Devs want to make them MORE attractive, not less. Of course, this doesn't mean that they will improve them in a way that will primarily benefit multiboxers, but I think it's safe to expect on overall improvement in Shaman power relative to most classes. At least that's my best guess.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Without me doing a ton of research, lets say someone had 4 ele shaman and could pick anything for the 5th.

What would you pick if your ONLY concern was to be safe from fear by oppenents in pvp, for the whole group.

[Xzin]

Without me doing a ton of research, lets say someone had 4 ele shaman and could pick anything for the 5th.

What would you pick if your ONLY concern was to be safe from fear by oppenents in pvp, for the whole group.

There is no SAFE from fear. But if you are THAT concerned about it..... go Undead and carry a trinket. Unless they leave tremor alone.

[Naysayer]

Without me doing a ton of research, lets say someone had 4 ele shaman and could pick anything for the 5th.

What would you pick if your ONLY concern was to be safe from fear by oppenents in pvp, for the whole group.Fear is a magic debuff. Priests and paladin can dispell/cleanse fear off almost instantly. Paladin can use their bubble of immunity to even remove it off of themselves and cleanse others while he's still in his bubble. Priest have Mass Dispell that can dispell whole groups of feared players.

[heyaz]

So is it confirmed that grounding and tremor won't stack either? Or just ToW? I'm looking at things from a pvp perspective

[heyaz]

Without me doing a ton of research, lets say someone had 4 ele shaman and could pick anything for the 5th.

What would you pick if your ONLY concern was to be safe from fear by oppenents in pvp, for the whole group.

There is no SAFE from fear. But if you are THAT concerned about it..... go Undead and carry a trinket. Unless they leave tremor alone.Well, my group can get out of it 3 times :)

Fear ward on priests, dispel locks macro gets avoids first fear bomb
Will of the forsaken avoids second
Trinket avoids third

[Crucial]

So TOW is now raid ride but doesn't stack, OK. So any other elemental shaman in a raid means their 41 pt TOW talent is now useless, or did I miss how bliz was going to fix that predicament?

[Vyndree]

So TOW is now raid ride but doesn't stack, OK. So any other elemental shaman in a raid means their 41 pt TOW talent is now useless, or did I miss how bliz was going to fix that predicament?

As is moonkin aura, as is trueshot aura, as is sanctity aura... All talented abilities that work raid-wide in WoTLK but will not stack. A ele shammy can either use their 41 pt ToW to add additional RANGE to their totems if the raid is sperad out, or can provide Flametongue weapon totem to the raid to up everyone else's +dmg, or can add offensive fire totems to increase their DPS. Just because YOU are not laying ToW doesn't mean you don't get the effect -- if you're not laying ToW that means some other shaman already is -- and you still get the benefit of it.

I think they're making this the general rule:
If it works raid-wide (i.e. totems, auras) it does not stack.
If it's a party buff (i.e. ferocious inspiration), it will continue to stack


Having totems work raid-wide is a multiboxer nerf, and a raid buff. Now what percentage of the population raids vs multiboxes?

Furthermore, I can finally stop QQing when a turd in AV gets leader and doesn't put all of my shammies in the same group. Geez that's annoying not to have my perfectly aligned totem combinations.

[Crucial]

Having totems work raid-wide is a multiboxer nerf, and a raid buff. Now what percentage of the population raids vs multiboxes?

Furthermore, I can finally stop QQing when a turd in AV gets leader and doesn't put all of my shammies in the same group. Geez that's annoying not to have my perfectly aligned totem combinations.
Without a doubt there are more raiders than multiboxers, but in my case and I'm sure there are others besides me (though we are miniority I'm sure) we multibox raids. I totally agree that you can't have it stacking across the whole raid... it would be incredibly OP. However, the benefit of one shaman out of 5 providing the buff for others still means that 4 of them are not providing any additonal benefit like they used to - the benefit of having an increased range is irrelevant when multiboxing since its highly unlikely they will be out of range from one another.

[Suvega]

LOL?!?!? or your defending your girlfriend or the arguement was correct. Which is it?! See what I did there?! LEss QQ more PEWPEW!!!~ONE

A) Not to mention does your post make absolutely no Logical sense, but Personal attacks make me chuckle, tis cute :)

B) The amount of F.U.D. in this thread is disgusting (Fear. Uncertanity, Doubt).
TOW will not stack. That will affect about 4% of the multiboxing community who actually uses this totem in endgame (the raiding shaman, or shaman who are levelign and trying to kill content thats 7 levels higher then them...). The ones it does affect are gimping their raid to begin with by stacking 4 ele shaman in the same group.

Tremor and Grounding are still stacking, they probably will stack, and nothign has even HINTED at them not stacking. So get over it, its not a concern as of right now.

And even if they will NOT stack (very unlikely), you are still playing -the- best multiboxing class.

Mail Armor
4-5 Heroisms
A way to break fear 5* per 2 min (trinket + tremor round robin)
Nature's swiftness + Elemental Mastery (No other class has a 100% chance to crit activatable ability.)
You can Fucking HEAL.
4 peice bonus on your pvp set is uber (50% pushback resistence wut?!)


So seriously, Stop QQ'ing over stupid shit. The amount of posts in the this forum with the ZOMG @#$@#$ and then 50 pages of responses to the theroretical change that COULD happen int he possible future is just retarded.

[mlwhitt]

Technically you could still have multiple Shaman drop ToW even though they don't stack for the very reason you just mentioned, range. Let's just use a ten man for example. Group 1 and Group 2 both have a Shaman. Could you still use two ToW to cover a larger radius even if they don't stack? You still could overlap them to insure that the entire group can stay within range of a ToW right? So that being said it is not a complete nerf. Sure you can't stack them, but multiple shaman across the raid would help secure that regardless of location you would still be covered by ToW.

[mlwhitt]

Like Suvega just posted, really it is way too early to be sure what Blizzard is going to do. Also as Suvega said (and has been brought up many times this thread) even without ToW stacking, or hell even without totems period Shaman still would be the best of the best when it comes to boxing because of mail, shields, healing, self-rez, etc.

[Suvega]

Like Suvega just posted, really it is way too early to be sure what Blizzard is going to do. Also as Suvega said (and has been brought up many times this thread) even without ToW stacking, or hell even without totems period Shaman still would be the best of the best when it comes to boxing because of mail, shields, healing, self-rez, etc.
<3

[Lyonheart]

LOL?!?!? or your defending your girlfriend or the arguement was correct. Which is it?! See what I did there?! LEss QQ more PEWPEW!!!~ONE

A) Not to mention does your post make absolutely no Logical sense, but Personal attacks make me chuckle, tis cute :)

B) The amount of F.U.D. in this thread is disgusting (Fear. Uncertanity, Doubt).
TOW will not stack. That will affect about 4% of the multiboxing community who actually uses this totem in endgame (the raiding shaman, or shaman who are levelign and trying to kill content thats 7 levels higher then them...). The ones it does affect are gimping their raid to begin with by stacking 4 ele shaman in the same group.

Tremor and Grounding are still stacking, they probably will stack, and nothign has even HINTED at them not stacking. So get over it, its not a concern as of right now.

And even if they will NOT stack (very unlikely), you are still playing -the- best multiboxing class.

Mail Armor
4-5 Heroisms
A way to break fear 5* per 2 min (trinket + tremor round robin)
Nature's swiftness + Elemental Mastery (No other class has a 100% chance to crit activatable ability.)
You can Fucking HEAL.
4 peice bonus on your pvp set is uber (50% pushback resistence wut?!)


So seriously, Stop QQ'ing over stupid shit. The amount of posts in the this forum with the ZOMG @#$@#$ and then 50 pages of responses to the theroretical change that COULD happen int he possible future is just retarded.

I agree 100% but don't forget self battle rez and....> THUNDERSTORM and HEX.. those two new abilities will make us way OP in both PvP and PvE. They keep BUFFING TS so i doubt it will get nerfed. And Hex will be great for PvE.. even though its not spammable like sheep. with 4 or 5 shaman having it, it will make trash too easy.

Bottom line, Shamans will still be the best class to MB.. by far... nerfs or not. The nerf to ToW will only suck for leveling past 50.. that i agree!

[Havelcek]

Given the way totems are changing, if you are running a pally/shaman group this might be the perfect moment to sub out a shaman for a balance druid. You might not be losing much in the 4th set of totems and you gain thorns, mark, good healing, and the nature buff. It will be an interesting situation to watch develop.