Keyclone - $10 or $20?

[Berad]

I have seen a bunch of things that state the cost of Keyclone is $10... But when I go to purchace it is $20!

I only have intentions of toying around, and i'm okay with blow'n $10 on something i'd just for a month..... but it threw me off when it was $20 at the site....



maybe i'm missing something?

[Diamndzngunz]

It was changed to $20 about 3 months ago.

[Berad]

Looks like I missed the boat then :S

[keyclone]

actually, it was in the beginning of february...

[Lorune]

20$ for a tool, that is so effective and good, if only all software i bought gave me this much bang for a buck i would be estatic.

Seriously i would have paid 30/40$ even for it.

Perhaps however some form of trial key would be nice for people to check it themselves and get them convinced :)

[keyclone]

unfortunately, trials are the meat & potatoes of the crackers... (and yes, i already know... but why make it easy...)

[Lorune]

Yup. Figured as much.

Ah well, as mentioned its a great tool :)

[Steph]

I wondered about these $20 as well. I bought a license before for $10 when I was messing about before.
After setting up a new computer I couldn't be bothered to wait to recycle the old license by bothering Keyclone with a manual swap and just bought it again.
I think it's worth it even for $30. =]

[Oswyn]

Worth it. Even Kramer rates it as a buy. B-B-B-Booooya!

[JoKer76]

I wouldn't mind spending $20 for this ... it seems like a great tool and the reviews here are very good. The difference between $10 and $20 for the same functionality is negligible.

My only issue is that I would prefer to dual box on 2 separate PCs due to latency, frame rates ,etc. And from what I've read, that would require me to buy 2 licenses ... so, I'm spending $40 for a tool I would use on 2 toons when others are only spending $20 and using it for 5 toons (if multi boxing on a single PC). So, if I were to ever multibox 5 toons I would have to plunk down $100 to get the same experience as someone who only paid $20. Seems a bit unfair to me.

Any possibility of paying $20 for the first license and $5 (maybe $10) for each additional? This would mitigate the cost to something more reasonable, at least for me. Otherwise, it would seem to make more sense to purchase a hardware replicator.

[keyclone]

$100 is breaking the bank for a guy with 5 computers running 5 accounts? the accounts alone will run you $30*5 for the initial box.. then $75/month after that. and the computers were at least $1000 ea... so, you'd be spending $5000 + 150 + 75*3 for the first 3 months, or $5,375 total.

seems the $20 per machine is the cheapest part...

not to mention, most people play on 1 machine these days... as dual-core and especially quad cores have little to no problem 5 boxing. machine: $1200, 2 screen @ $300 ea ... 5*30 for BC and $75/month for 3 months... total: $2,175
tack on the $20 one time fee to glue it all together and that's a lot cheaper then 5 systems.

[JoKer76]

$100 is breaking the bank for a guy with 5 computers running 5 accounts? the accounts alone will run you $30*5 for the initial box.. then $75/month after that. and the computers were at least $1000 ea... so, you'd be spending $5000 + 150 + 75*3 for the first 3 months, or $5,375 total.

seems the $20 per machine is the cheapest part...

not to mention, most people play on 1 machine these days... as dual-core and especially quad cores have little to no problem 5 boxing. machine: $1200, 2 screen @ $300 ea ... 5*30 for BC and $75/month for 3 months... total: $2,175
tack on the $20 one time fee to glue it all together and that's a lot cheaper then 5 systems.Your making a lot of assumptions in your post. I personally have 4 PCs and 3 LCDs which I have purchased over the past few years. And have not spent $1000 for any of the 4 PCs, I'm probably in for a total of $3 grand for everything ... Granted, $100 is not going to "break the bank" but it sure seems unreasonable when other people are getting the same experience for a lot less money. Charging people different prices for the same experience is adverse selection any way you look at it.

I understand you want to get paid for your work, and you certainly should. But I (like many others) prefer not to run my '2box' setup on my main PC because my main LCD is 28 inches. Running an instance on that monitor and a 2nd instance on another monitor seriously cripples my frame rates.

I'm not looking for a handout, or even saying that I wouldn't spend $40 for 2 licenses. But subsidizing the cost of extra licenses would only encourage more people to spread the word and use your software. Take it for what it's worth.

[kwal]

unfortunately, trials are the meat & potatoes of the crackers... (and yes, i already know... but why make it easy...)Actually, it is ust as easy to crack a license as it is for a trial for a seasoned cracker. And if someone really wanted to cheat you out of it... well you already know.
You may lose a few customers by making a trial available, but I am telling you right now, you would gain way more.
I am sure there are plenty of people out there that would buy it, but are extremely hesitant because they don't want to dish out the cash in case it isn't what they expected -- no amount of high praise, or great reviews can convince them... they want to try it for themselves

What you could do instead is just strip out some of the code for the advanced features. For example have maximizer not customizable make it so it is only predefined areas.
Make it so the program doesn't automatically put in the username into the wow login screen... etc
if you put in a bunch of little things like that, that don't remove from your product, but add in a few annoyances people may be more encourged to buy your product

[icecore]

Yeah I bought 5 licenses before the price hike, but one of my pc's broke and I came back and woah it was twice as much. Its great software and I did get another license, but it'd be nice if you got some kind of discount if you bought in bulk.

[Vyndree]

Running an instance on that monitor and a 2nd instance on another monitor seriously cripples my frame rates.

Indeed -- the benefits that come from software boxing? Cost and space
The benefits from hardware? Performance and reliability.

Granted, a bunch of sh*tty computers compared to a brand new shiny quad core with tons of memory will be similar -- so individual situations will vary. But even dual-core "clone" machines will run WoW with more FPS than a quad-core fancy system.

In any case, keyclone is an option for multi-machine multiboxing, but it's not the only option. If you don't like keyclone's marketing strategy you don't have to use it. There are hardware options (i.e. a multiplexer or sync'ing one wireless keyboard to all 5 computers) or a couple free software solutions.

http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/Software#Software_Comparison
Look under the "Multiple PC" column.



Yeah I bought 5 licenses before the price hike, but one of my pc's broke and I came back and woah it was twice as much. Its great software and I did get another license, but it'd be nice if you got some kind of discount if you bought in bulk.

You know that you could have just contacted keyclone to get your license updated to the new machine's system id... ;) It's a lifetime license.

[-silencer-]

Actually, it is ust as easy to crack a license as it is for a trial for a seasoned cracker. And if someone really wanted to cheat you out of it... well you already know.
You may lose a few customers by making a trial available, but I am telling you right now, you would gain way more.
I've got to disagree with you here. One of my jobs was to keep on eye on the piracy front to watch for our software showing up and seeing what changes were made to the binary to figure out how the software was cracked. The easier you make the software to crack, the easier it is to find available through piracy. I'm not going to go out and state that it's possible to make uncrackable code - I'm a believer that just about anything done with software can be worked around, it just may take more time. Trials are incredibly easy to crack since it's easy to check the binaries for jumps to "registration checking" sections of the assembly code, then remove those jump sections. That's a major reason why nearly all EULAs specifically state it is illegal to disassemble the binaries - that's what usually needs to be done to crack code. Show some respect for what Rob's done for the community. If someone who's spending the money 5-boxing 5 machines has a complaint of a one-time cost of $100 (when they're spending $75/mo) and is unwilling to learn/use alternative software, they're pathetic for wanting something that Rob supports so well for free/heavy discount. As soon as exceptions start to be made, everyone and their mother is going to jump out of the woodwork demanding a rebate on the multiple licenses they've purchased.

[MaxD]

Yeah I bought 5 licenses before the price hike, but one of my pc's broke and I came back and woah it was twice as much. Its great software and I did get another license, but it'd be nice if you got some kind of discount if you bought in bulk.Hmmm, Not sure why you had to get another one after your PC broke. I had 2 Issues where I was able to have Rob retrieve my license via my email. Did you bother to Email or IM him? He had no problems getting me mine back same day. His price is very reasonable if you consider what it does for your gaming experience. I got mine for 10$s a pop when I got them, but would have paid more, however I also have sent 7 people to purchase from Rob so I dont feel too bad only paying what I did. If I had to pay 20 at the time I wouldnt have flinched. PAY the 20 bucks man WELL WORTH IT

[JoeWunsch]

Charging people different prices for the same experience is adverse selection any way you look at it.

He isn't charging people different prices, the price increased. Companies are allowed to increase the price of software they sell...

If you don't want to spend 20 dollars, use octopus or AHK.

[Gaffy]

Basically what it all comes down to is one thing. Is it worth it FOR YOU? If the answer to that question is yes, then go get it, if no, then figure out another way. There are multiple methods to multibox, and they all don't work for everyone for whatever reason. You need to pick the one that works for you.

And as far as trial versions and bulk discounts, Rob can do whatever he wants to, it is his program, he wrote it, he supports it, he updates it. Remember that adding these "features" would give Rob more work, for potentially less profit.

[Berad]

Yikes, sorry to get everyone all worked up. I'm sure the program is worth the $20. I just had intentions of 2boxing mybrothers account while he waits for wotlk. I thought it would be something neat~ So i was gonna be cheap about it...

[Wilbur]

Personally, I don't think there should be a trial. The amount of 'freetards' who will jump on it, as soon as there is a trial. Rob cannot be expected to support that slavering bunch of mouthbreathers ;)

[Kirtapatrik]

Hello all, I'm new to this as I've seen loads of Elemental shaman nuke me dead in PvP so I was thinking of testing this ;)

My question is, as I've no bank account yet, is there anyway to just try it out for 1 day or more like Blizzards trial account?

Thank you :)

[Leyuna]

Keyclone you have to pay for.
Octopus is free, and a good tool for trying out dual/multiboxing too see if it something for you.
After that it is a simple question about taste, i started out with Octopus desided to try out keyclone and i never looked back there is just more options in keyclone that works for me, although i most say i always advice the people i meet to try things with Octopus first.

[Arryth]

It is $20, and in my opinion, its worth every last cent. I bought three copies, so that should say something about how well I like the program.

Keyclone lets me have so much more flexability when I don't feel like using my old hardware solutions, plus the guy is phenominal about answering pm's with questions and such. The service alone makes it worth it. I also like the fact that its budget friendly. I have all my hardware to box with out it if needed, but I like that it lets newbs get in to our sport more cheaply. I feel that the more boxers the better. Its a whole new game in and of its self.



To sum up... 20 bucks is not much money for what your getting, and Keyclone earns every last penny of its low cost.

[add2]

Between support and stupidity on my part for breaking something, I have never waited more then a few hours for his responce.

20 bucks worth it...obviously imo never had a doubt

[BobGnarly]

Your making a lot of assumptions in your post. I personally have 4 PCs and 3 LCDs which I have purchased over the past few years. And have not spent $1000 for any of the 4 PCs, I'm probably in for a total of $3 grand for everything ... Granted, $100 is not going to "break the bank" but it sure seems unreasonable when other people are getting the same experience for a lot less money. Charging people different prices for the same experience is adverse selection any way you look at it.

I don't think your argument follows. You are the one who apparently wants to box across multiple computers, nobody's telling you you have to. The other people who are "getting the same experience for a lot less money" are either a) using a hardware solution which is a lot more expensive than $100, b) using 5 computers with keyclone, and thus, payed $100 also, or c) are running 5 accounts on one computer. You are perfectly able to do any of these, just like the rest. There is no discrepancy here.


I understand you want to get paid for your work, and you certainly should. But I (like many others) prefer not to run my '2box' setup on my main PC because my main LCD is 28 inches. Running an instance on that monitor and a 2nd instance on another monitor seriously cripples my frame rates.

A choice that you are making, and hence, you have to pay for. Why should Rob cut the price down for you because you don't want to run it on one computer?

And honestly, I can't believe that somebody how has 4+ computers and is considering pay $75/month for this hobby is complaining about an extra $80 in startup costs. I will tell you this. I've bought a lot of software in my days, and this is BY FAR the best support I've received for $20 IN MY LIFE, and probably in top 5 overall. It's worth every penny if you want to go the software route.

[keyclone]

I've bought a lot of software in my days, and this is BY FAR the best support I've received for $20 IN MY LIFE, and probably in top 5 overall. It's worth every penny if you want to go the software route.thanks man... let's me know i'm not being an idiot for pouring out support. it's great to know that people appreciate it (and it has been mentioned on these forums before... i've just never usually respond)

personally, i just hate that our industry has gotten so impersonal that people feel they are alone except for automated voicemail, dry/uninformative FAQs, or in some incomprehensible foreign language. i don't want anyone using my software to feel that way. (hmmm... real tech support... might be an opportunity here... hmmm)

[phetish]

Running an instance on that monitor and a 2nd instance on another monitor seriously cripples my frame rates. There is a known issue when trying to run multiple instances of WOW on multiple monitors but there is a fix.

The FPS difference between EXTENDED desktop and STRETCHED desktop is HUGE. Not sure what kind of video card you are using, but on my ATI Control Panel, go to "Displays Manager", then right click on the 2nd monitor. Select "Stretch desktop Horizontally" and apply. If you use maximizer or PiP you will need to change your settings, but it's worth it.

I go from 10 FPS to 60 FPS on my machine with that little change.

Good Luck!

[skarlot]

$100 is breaking the bank for a guy with 5 computers running 5 accounts? the accounts alone will run you $30*5 for the initial box.. then $75/month after that. and the computers were at least $1000 ea... so, you'd be spending $5000 + 150 + 75*3 for the first 3 months, or $5,375 total.

seems the $20 per machine is the cheapest part...

not to mention, most people play on 1 machine these days... as dual-core and especially quad cores have little to no problem 5 boxing. machine: $1200, 2 screen @ $300 ea ... 5*30 for BC and $75/month for 3 months... total: $2,175
tack on the $20 one time fee to glue it all together and that's a lot cheaper then 5 systems. if there were bullshit awards going out, posts like this might win.

[Wilbur]

if there were bullshit awards going out, posts like this might win.

Care to elaborate?

[Fallenfaith]

Charging for a per machine licence is not unreasonable, most if not all software companies do it.

[Zub]

I think it all comes down to one thing. If you *want* keyclone, you pay the price. if not, you can always try one of the other tools.

<3 keyclones. the tool has great feature, and the guy is very helpful.

[skarlot]

if there were bullshit awards going out, posts like this might win.

Care to elaborate?not really, it's plain to see.

[Vyndree]

if there were bullshit awards going out, posts like this might win.

Care to elaborate?not really, it's plain to see.

If you want to have an intelligent conversation, it's usually best not to come out with guns blazing.

That being said, I'm game to start.

I see one side of the coin -- in essence, "Why is someone allowed to charge me extra just because I might make more money?". Well, absolutely. It's a form of discrimination based on perceived income. But let's look a little deeper than that.

This is a personal standpoint -- you're really not losing any functionality from a technical perspective -- you can run multiple WoW windows on the same machine, or you can buy multiple windows to get a SIMILAR functionality cross-computer. But as a human, it makes sense to us from the perspective of the consumer that these two things are the same -- cross-machine and cross-window.

Software licenses are often done per-machine. Why is that? I'm going to assume it's because there really is no way to track "ownership" outside of the actual physical machine, which includes things like IP addresses, MAC addresses, OS keys, hardware configs, and the like. Your hardware is essentially your "identity".

Furthermore, the programming logic required to send keypresses to multiple WINDOWS is totally different than sending it to multiple MACHINES. From a programmer standpoint, that's 2x the work for what the consumer sees as the "same functionality". So in fact, while the CONSUMER sees no "additional value" in purchasing the "same functionality" twice -- it can indeed be thought of as two seperate programs (one codepath: send keypresses to multiple windows on the same OS; one codepath: sending keypresses over a network connection to other computers, who must receive, process, and respond to those communications)

So since it "costs more" from a technical development standpoint, let's look at things from a business standpoint.

If a consumer's computer breaks, how much does it cost, in time, to support the consumer and update to a new computer? What about those of us who regularly reformat our computers? So... if a consumer has more than one computer that's more man-hours required to support them. If you didn't charge per computer, the user with the most computers will be the most "expensive" -- with a likely average of more support-hours required for the same dollar price.


So while we may not like it personally, I can see the reasoning -- both technical and business -- for charging per-computer. Multiple-computer support is more expensive. Initial cost of development for two-codepaths that do "the same thing" is also more expensive. Granted, some consumers won't like the business model or won't want to pay for "the same functionality", but it certainly isn't discriminatory on purpose. It has logical reasoning to support the one-license-per-computer cost.



So I guess I understand Skarlot's perspective -- but you're also thinking in the mode of the free open-source developer mentality thanks to Octopus. You can ignore the business standpoint side of things, because as a free software nobody can DEMAND your time for support (granted, I know it gets annoying -- I get PMs daily for AHK/Octopus/Keyclone support even though I don't use ANY of them!). But it's POSSIBLE as a free-developer that you can ignore the fact that nobody is paying you for your time, therefore you "owe" nobody your time. So taking that long-term-support of the argument out, you just have consumer happiness and perception versus initial coding time. So your decision is weighted to neither side, while keyclone -- as a business who is selling his support time as well as the initial cost of the product -- has to balance 3 things weighing more towards the license-per-computer argument.

[skarlot]

Thing is I'm not anti-keyclone - if he dissapeared .. I might end up with more users than I really wanted. There's definitely justification for paying more for multiple machines. I personally dislike the licensing with keyclone and wouldn't even bother renewing my license, I would just make my own keyclone at this point. However, the summing of numbers as he does with hardware, and comparing against software (hardware != software, software is freely duplicated), is just invalid. It's crafy, and then saying "oh but look it's a good deal", well who's it a good deal for? Him, you better believe it, because if he's prepared to sell 2 for 40, then 5 for 100 is a damn good deal for him! It's nothing to do with the price of the computer hardware. It's pure trickery.

[Vyndree]

It's nothing to do with the price of the computer hardware.

I didn't say it had anything to do with the price of the actual hardware. (And I'm in no way calling you a hater, I just like controversial conversations. They're quite engaging :) )

I hypothesized that supporting multiple licenses on multiple computers, where users can freely change the system ID at a mere hardware upgrade or OS install means that he has to spend more man-hours supporting the product. Therefore, if that is the case, then it's justifiable to charge more for something that will cost more time to support.

If that's not the case then my hypothesis goes out the window, but I know that supporting a product takes vastly more time than the initial time to program it. I'm working in Visual studio right now and we are currently supporting our products for )I believe) 10-11 YEARS. Which means testing our products against old releases, operating systems, hardware, and combinations is ALOT of time. A looooooot of time. When you buy software you're not just buying the collection of 1's and 0's. You're paying for the developer's time -- in the past (to develop the initial product) and in the future (to issue bug fixes, patches, and ongoing support)

[keyclone]

the subject alone is amazing. please show me another industry where you would expect.. nay, demand... a product from an expert for no cost what so ever. seriously. think of one.

food production?
medicine?
cosmetics?
automotive?
computer hardware?

ok.. they may be physical real world products. let's try intellectual based products:
--
music?
art?
marketing?
graphic design?
movies?
tv shows?


service based products?
--
legal advice?
tax preparation?
medical?
car repair?
landscaping??

you can't even get your yard mowed or car washed without paying someone at LEAST $20. so why is it that people actually think they can argue about software production and expect to get it for free?

answer? the open source community... which is big business's answer to the garage programmer... the little guy we all heard about in the late 80s/early 90s that could topple some large corporation from his garage (if you don't know what i'm talking about, go watch 'the pirates of silicon valley' for a refresher). by supporting open source, big business insures the little guy cannot earn enough money to work solely on his 'garage project'... thereby hampering development and insuring a dominate role for the large corporation.

add 15-20 years to that movement and you come to today... where people expect all software for no money out of their pocket. what most people don't realize is that those 'open source' companies have staff that require salaries. how do you think those salaries get paid? with what income? answer... by selling any data they can collect on their users to marketing companies, which in turn will push directed ad campaigns to the end user.

when you start to understand that.. you'll think twice about using 'free' software from unknown/anonymous sources.. especially anti-virus software (free AND closed source?? LOL)

as for the price of the equipment, i believe skarlot was going to nitpick over the cost of a computer. i believe you can get refurbished computers for $500... plus tax. mid line machines are $750-1000. top end is still $1500-2500. and don't forget you need a monitor... which you could dumpster dive for, or spend the $200.

[Arryth]

Yikes, sorry to get everyone all worked up. I'm sure the program is worth the $20. I just had intentions of 2boxing mybrothers account while he waits for wotlk. I thought it would be something neat~ So i was gonna be cheap about it... Take it from some one who has used it for over a year, Keycone is worth every penny, if you want to operate on one single machine. It also works nicely from multiple computers. I have had a few problems, but those were do to my own ignorance, rather then any thing wrong with Keyclone.

Buy it, Install it, ???? , profit.

[Moorea]

I think having some sort of discount past the first license would make sense (ie $10 2nd license, ...)

[Zub]

My company actually sells its software licenses per cpu.

[Abyssal]

if money is the issue... don't multibox 8|

[zanthor]

I've bought a lot of software in my days, and this is BY FAR the best support I've received for $20 IN MY LIFE, and probably in top 5 overall. It's worth every penny if you want to go the software route.thanks man... let's me know i'm not being an idiot for pouring out support. it's great to know that people appreciate it (and it has been mentioned on these forums before... i've just never usually respond)

personally, i just hate that our industry has gotten so impersonal that people feel they are alone except for automated voicemail, dry/uninformative FAQs, or in some incomprehensible foreign language. i don't want anyone using my software to feel that way. (hmmm... real tech support... might be an opportunity here... hmmm)We paid about $250,000 for our microsoft enterprise licensing.... and I get free E-Mail support from them...

I tried taking my support to e-mail with Keyclone, and he had me call him cuz it was faster and easier.

[Tasty]

My company actually sells its software licenses per cpu.SPSS?

[Stealthy]

My company actually sells its software licenses per cpu.

As does Microsoft on products like SQL Server and Biz-Talk Server.

Does buying a license for Windows allow you to install it on multiple machines, even if it's just one user? Noooooooooo :)

Cheers,
S.

[Zub]

My company actually sells its software licenses per cpu.SPSS?
hum wut?
The product is BusinessObjects/WebIntelligence, a now SAP product.

[Bradster]

Your stealing the program for $20. Its worth far more then that, don't forget about the long track record of good support that goes along with it.