2 boxing in FPS

[Thaeds]

Actually, I don't play FPS games, I play MMORPGS like everyone else here, but I don't want to box like you do! I did the alt-tab thing for awhile in EQ, and successfully used an enchanter, warrior, and two clerics to kill BOT tower bosses by myself, and do Ikkinz trials with a buddy who boxed DPS.

Anyway, TO THE POINT. I know almost no one here alt tabs anymore, so what exactly do I want to do differently? Well, like alt tabing, you guys are all really only controlling one character at a time. You can switch the character you are currently controlling, and you can send commands through to other characters in the background, but you can still only move one character at once, and if that character gets separated from your "pack" it's basically useless.

What I want to do, is to play two complete and independent characters. I want to be able to move them independently, and simultaneously. I want to be able to jump and circle strafe, on two different characters, while killing two different targets, in two different zones, at the same time... I hope this is clear!

So obviously this wouldn't be too hard. Just need 2 computers, 2 monitors, 2 keyboards, 2 mice, 4 hands, done.

Wait! 4 hands means two people, or surgery... I need to do it with two hands!

So basically, to play two characters with two hands, I need to figure out a way to play one character, functionally (jumping, circle strafing, while killing someone) with ONE hand. If I can figure out how to do this, I'll just mirror it for my other hand, and I'm done.

You guys see why this is different? Anyway I have some ideas. Since I can only use one hand for each character, and I really want to be able to jump and circle strafe while killing people, I can't really use a keyboard. I don't need access to a mouse cursor, but I do need access to mouselook. So I was thinking of either using a mouse with lots of buttons (for skills) or a Joystick with lots of buttons (for skills of course) Obviously even the most button laden mouse might only have 15 or so, same with the joystick, so I figured that I could use a foot pedal for shift states, which I believe would give me enough buttons to play.

Anyway, I'm looking for others thoughts, and some more ideas. I am not willing to automate movement, or restrict one character as a "master" and the other as a "slave". Both characters must be fully functional, simultaneously. While I know a lot of you achieve near this, I highly doubt your 5 box combos can spread out in 5 different directions and then circle strafe around 5 moving targets while killing them!

While I don't really want to spend $500 on something just to get this to work, but if it was the only way, I might be willing. I have two separate working computers with two monitors already. Just need to figure out the best hardware/software to use to make this happen!

As for "WHY?!" my answer is that traditional gaming is far too easy, and this seems pretty fucking hard.

[unit187]

first of all, you need to be able to pay alot of attantion of both screens in the same time, thats kinda hard, but possible

2nd, you gotta use 2 mouses with spells binded to them. That will be far from enough to use even half of character's possibilies.

3rd. There is no way you can learn to use mouse with left hand anytime soon.

4th, I dont see how is it possible to move with both chars in the same time, target something different in the same time, cast different spells, etc etc etc

you will constantly fail to do right spell, move to right side etc.

I am pretty sure the idea is pretty weird and impossible for human. If you are naga-ogre with 2 heads and 4 hands - you can try.

[Thaeds]

Consider it an exercise for my brain if you like. When I played EQ I would often play 3 characters in high stress situations, IE warrior, enchanter and cleric in a 6 person group. Being the only healer, CC and tank, and managing it makes me think that this is possible.

The only real addition is to be able to move more than one character at a time, which will take awhile to get used to, but I have forever.

Learning to use a mouse with my left hand might be hard, Joystick then? I don't mind learning left handed mouse anyway.

As far as not having enough spells, using a footpedal with 4 shift states a 15 button mouse could have ~60 keys bound to it! Seems like enough. Finding a decent mouse with 15 buttons might be tricky though.

Don't get me wrong I don't like the idea of my spells bound on a mouse, or a joystick for that matter... I just can't think of a better alternative. =\.

[unit187]

Consider it an exercise for my brain if you like. When I played EQ I would often play 3 characters in high stress situations, IE warrior, enchanter and cleric in a 6 person group. Being the only healer, CC and tank, and managing it makes me think that this is possible.

The only real addition is to be able to move more than one character at a time, which will take awhile to get used to, but I have forever.

Learning to use a mouse with my left hand might be hard, Joystick then? I don't mind learning left handed mouse anyway.

As far as not having enough spells, using a footpedal with 4 shift states a 15 button mouse could have ~60 keys bound to it! Seems like enough. Finding a decent mouse with 15 buttons might be tricky though.

Don't get me wrong I don't like the idea of my spells bound on a mouse, or a joystick for that matter... I just can't think of a better alternative. =\.

when you played EQ you alt-tabbed between chars, its different

moving with 2 characters at different directions without losing full control on the is much harder
for human it is pretty hard to even move your own body to different directions. I mean for example there are exercises where you do circle movements with one hand clockwise and with other hand - opposite direction. Thats pretty hard, isnt it?

Controlling 2 different characters for me seems almost the same, you gotta run in the same to the left and to the right and even more comples movements.
I mean you gotta move your left mouse to the right and in the same time move your right mouse to the right and backwards. gg

[Thaeds]

Well then to start with I would only move one at a time, with two different hands. This should be easy enough once I learn lefty mouse moving.

Then after only moving one at a time, and only casting with one at a time, using separate hands, I should naturally get better and better at it... Eventually maybe I can move with one and cast with the other, or cast with both at the same time.

Then after awhile move with both. Really doesn't seem that hard to me.

I think it will take a lot of practice, but I bet it's like riding a bike, once you get it, you get it.

[unit187]

imho it will take long monthes of practice...

also I dont see how can you do effective control of both chars at the same time simply because you cant monitor them in the same time in case of mouse movement and targeting. I doubt even after monthes of practice you can do pretty accurate mouse clicks after all...

[Thaeds]

Honestly don't see how it's significantly harder than alt tabing between characters. Alt Tabing involves using two (or in my case four) characters at once, moving them manually, casting their spells manually, and then switching to another...

If anything this would be easier to do, since you don't have to switch characters, once you got used to it. It's impossible for it to be less effective than alt tabing, since you could always just use one at a time.

I know while alt tabing boxing I've wanted to move another character, and not been able to.

I don't think this would be terribly difficult, the only major obstacle would be learning to mouse with my left hand.

[Zaelar]

I'd say it is completely possible to run two characters in wow while they are separated and be somewhat effectively killing normal mobs at your level. The only major problems I see is when you need to react to something fast, like a powerful aoe you need to avoid or something you need to dispel, which doesn't come up too often in the solo content. I have no idea if this is the case in other games though.

[unit187]

Honestly don't see how it's significantly harder than alt tabing between characters. Alt Tabing involves using two (or in my case four) characters at once, moving them manually, casting their spells manually, and then switching to another...

it is huge difference. You can manually move different characters, but you move one character in time. When you move two characters in the same time, with non-usual way (mouse in left hand), it is much harder.

Tell me, can you write paint an image with left hand and completly different image with right hand in the same time? Thats pretty the same...

[Xzin]

What happens when you respawn at a COMPLETELY different part of the map?

[unit187]

What happens when you respawn at a COMPLETELY different part of the map?
he meant those characters locate in even different locations :P

[Rascalion]

Lefty mousing is pretty easy to pickup. I've been doing it for years at work with 2 computers.

With a FPS game, this should be fairly easy as long as your mouse has enough buttons ... or you enjoy using your nose to hit keys on your keyboards.

I really don't see why you wouldn't be able to play two characters in the same map in an FPS. It would take a great deal of concentration, but I can see it being done (and i'm intrigued enough to try it). Now, different maps or even two different fps games is a whole other level of it that i would see as been damn hard to do.

[Thaeds]

I used killing different people in different locations as an example. I would spend 90% of my time with my two characters side by side.

But yes, the reason that I want to do this is because of the challenge, and because, honestly, normal boxing doesn't do it for me. I'm sure some of you know the feeling that I talk about when I say I love it when there are three things that need to be done at exactly the same time, and you manage to execute it perfectly. Well normal boxing works fine for this 90% of the time, but if you need to move two characters at once, or target two different mobs at once, you can't really do it.

Anyway, I need some suggestions on how to make this work!

I had an idea... what if I find a joystick that has like, another little joystick on the thumb part? The main joystick could operate one character, and the mini joystick on my thumb could operate the other... Then I could have a gamepad in my left hand, with shift states and I'd be set!

I'd rather have two separate movement controllers, but then I lose access to a gamepad...

Maybe controlling both characters movement with one hand, and skills/casts with the other is the way to go, anyone know of some hardware that would make this possible? (Again, must be able to move both seperately!)

[Thaeds]

Alright check this out!

http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/1/AGS/AGS-onehand/dragonplus.htm

It's like a one handed Nostromo that has two Dpads and two Joysticks on it.

What about that in my right hand, controlling movement of both characters, and maybe some minor functions, and then a real gamepad in my left hand for spells/skills?

2 joysticks and 2 D pads seems like enough, if it's possible to get them to operate on mouselook, instead of keypresses anyway... maybe not =-(

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Thinking back to my Team Fortress days, I have a sneaking suspicion that you'd get BBQ'd by people playing one character. The only exception I can think of is someone playing static defense, like flag/base entry protection with an engineer and a demoman. Sniper+scout would be nigh unplayable as it's hard enough to hit someone with the sniper when they're jinking as is.

[Thaeds]

I'm not playing a FPS though =-) I just want to have more movement control of my 2nd character than most people who box do.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

If you can stack macros up on two keys, you could probably get away with it. I'd still think the cognitive dissonance would get you killed more often than not. There's a reason most people who play more than one prefer to multi than to control each. I did two-boxing like you're talking about for a while with a hunter and shaman but it ended up being a serial thought process for me. I could move the mouse over a big button and basically click it when I needed a heal but doing complicated stuff just needed too many keys and far too much positioning/strafing/etc.

For me, the benefits to fine-grain control over both was far outweighed by having the keys all on one kb/mouse and just having the 2nd guy on follow and /assisting me. Not to mention that it sped up my killing quite enough to make up for the extra time it took to mouse over to the other guy and loot stuff.

[edit] BUT, if you're dead set on doing this, may I suggest pet classes? Hunters and warlocks do well at this as they can DPS without having to maintain melee range and can control PVE mobs well with the pet taunts. In PVP, I wish you the best of luck. :P

[Thaeds]

You said that you did this? What setup did you use?

I am likely going to play a tank and a healer.

Really the cognitive dissonance is the reason that I'm doing it. I'm pretty positive that I will love that feeling, based on my previous boxing experience, switching between characters and moving them, I learned to recognize where each was quickly, it wasn't hard to keep track of 3-4 at the same time, switching between, I think I can do two simultaneously with practice.

Really all I need are good ideas for the input! Dual mice might be the only way to get what I want, but obviously that has a lot of restrictions, so I am open to ideas... I typically play with ~40 buttons per character, not including non essential buttons, which I'll have a keyboard for.

So what do you guys think about input options? Lets just assume I will one day be able to handle the characters, for now.

Joysticks would look pimp, dunno if they can have the same functionality that I need though.

[Zaelar]

Response to the dragonplus:

Get a pelican ps2>usb converter(others work but many have lag with some controllers) and joy2key and you can use any playstation controller. Directions will activate button presses on both press and release, so beware of using it with macros aren't spamproof. You can also get a usb tweaker program to cut down on the input timing, but it isn't necessary. I only use it for fighting games where timing is very important.

You're probably better off with an x-keys pro and putting half of it for one character and half for the other though. For combat-related purposes a mouse is only needed for looting. It helps with targeting but that can be done through hotkeys.

[Djarid]

there is a free utility called joymouse that will allow a joystick to act as a mouse... never saw a use for it but it might help you out...

I imagine that something like nostromo with an analog joystick and this utility is probably your nirvana

[Thaeds]

I'm really glad you mentioned JoyMouse. I might very well use it, but I still can't use two joysticks in one hand o_0. I was thinking maybe a joystick with a 4 or 8 way hat switch might be able to be used to control movement of my 2nd character, not as well as primary, but good enough to do basic positioning, so I can keep my other hand free for a gamepad.

Other option is dual joysticks, but this limits me to the buttons on them, and requires me to find one with right and left handed versions...

Same problem for dual mice.

Been thinking about this for awhile and I'm not much closer to a decision than when I started.

[Sam DeathWalker]

You don't want to do two toons similtanously ... becuase you actullay won't be playing them actually similtanously, you will be looking at one screen or the other, not at both at the same time, and you will eaither be using you right hand or your left hand but not both at the same insant, like the way you type you think you are using both hands but in fact you are using one at a time.

What you really want is one set of controls but the ability to switch between characters almost instantly ... kinda like what I have ...

[Thaeds]

I remember you from EQ sam =-). Legend!

I dunno though! You don't think with enough practice I would be able to? From the times that I used to box 3-4 characters with alt tab, I would be casting something on one character and simultaneously wish that I could move my others, and do stuff on them... I kinda have the feeling that I would be able to.

Regardless if I COULD though, if I can't find a way to do it well, and with enough buttons, there really is no point. Having access to buttons is more important than having access to strafe on both chars at the same time =-(.

So Sam, assuming that I was only going to do two characters, what is the best way to instantly switch between them? I haven't bought the computers yet, so I could have two separate ones, or just one. Whatever works best...

Really my main concern is being able to play both characters as naturally as possible. I have no ambition of trying to box an army without ever tabbing to my "drones". I want to be in total control (or as close to it as I can) of both characters at once. Most likely I will be playing a healer and a tank in FPS style RPG PVP (have to aim most spells). So instant switching, if I HAVE to switch between them, is a must.

[unit187]

I dunno though! You don't think with enough practice I would be able to? From the times that I used to box 3-4 characters with alt tab, I would be casting something on one character and simultaneously wish that I could move my others, and do stuff on them... I kinda have the feeling that I would be able to.

you dont understand... when you alt tab you control ONE character in time. Sure, you can think that would be nice to move/control other in the same time. But this is only in your mind. Actually, your mind is one thing, your body and its possibilities is another.
I wish I could control my 5 characters in the same time, I can actually do it in my mind but also I understand that it is impossible for my body.

[Thaeds]

I'm more likely to insist on it if you tell me it's impossible, because regardless of whether or not you can do it, I know I could.

And yes, I would very likely only "mentally" control one character at a time. But the fact is, deciding to use a spell only takes a fraction of the time that casting it uses, so while casting with one I could move or begin casting with the other. Maybe I would never simultaneously decide to turn left on one char, and cast heal on the other, but as my second character is casting heal, and is busy, I can move the first left, a lot faster than if I had to alt tab between them. I can deal with 1/10th of a second delay in "decision" time.

The fact is, it doesn't matter if it's possible or not, because I would need to be able to do it while having access to at least... 40 buttons for each character... That I'm not sure is possible. I don't mind using shift states, but like I said, having my abilities at my finger tips is more important than having a second strafe there.

[Thaeds]

Just had a new idea... What do you think about one joystick in my right hand, awesome gamepad in my left hand, with keystrokes falling through to both characters, and the hat switch on the joystick controlling my second character, but when I hit a button it shifts, and then the joystick controls my other character, and the hat switch controls the first?

This way I have access to both characters all the time, and a gamepad... The only downside is that I have good access to one character, and kinda lame to the other (can't aim with both, and likely can't strafe with 2nd character) But I could always switch!

I've never used a joystick to control a character in an FPS game, I read up on them, and some people like 'em, but most think they suck compared to a mouse... Dunno if it's just preference or if they are actually significantly worse.

Anyway it would be nice if you guys would help me with some ideas instead of these useless arguments on whether or not you think I can move two characters at once.

[unit187]

I'm more likely to insist on it if you tell me it's impossible, because regardless of whether or not you can do it, I know I could.

And yes, I would very likely only "mentally" control one character at a time. But the fact is, deciding to use a spell only takes a fraction of the time that casting it uses, so while casting with one I could move or begin casting with the other. Maybe I would never simultaneously decide to turn left on one char, and cast heal on the other, but as my second character is casting heal, and is busy, I can move the first left, a lot faster than if I had to alt tab between them. I can deal with 1/10th of a second delay in "decision" time.
rrright ^^ thats what I mean. You dont control them in the same time, you control one, then switch to another, then back to first. The biggest problem will be to move in right directions.

Also you will never be able to kill 2 moving targets, 1 for each character.

[Thaeds]

Also you will never be able to kill 2 moving targets, 1 for each character.
Auto attack, and moving one character at a time would do this easily.

How long have you been boxing again? I can fucking kill two moving NPCs at a time on two separate characters using alt tab. It's not hard.

[unit187]

Also you will never be able to kill 2 moving targets, 1 for each character.
Auto attack, and moving one character at a time would do this easily.

How long have you been boxing again? I can fucking kill two moving NPCs at a time on two separate characters using alt tab. It's not hard.
good luck killing a person in pvp with autoattack and moving one character in time. You will die faster then found out that your 2nd character is facing wrong way

also if it even would be npc aka mob with pretty heavy hits, it will kill your autoattacking character easy. I mean if u stay autoattacking and sometimes use abilities, you will more likely die soonish...

after all, I only can imagine your effectiveness in killing enemies with such "autoattack and moving one character in time"...

I am boxing a few monthes. Does it matter?

[Thaeds]

... You claimed it's impossible to kill two moving "targets" at once. Obviously you are wrong. Stop trying to wiggle out of it.

Yes it matters, because it's apparent that you do not possess the same talent for it that most of the boxers I know do. For some reason you act like it's insanely hard to control movement for two characters, and in reality it's not. It seems to me this could be due to lack of experience boxing. I'm pretty sure I'm right as well - especially if you are using the "master" "slave" setup that most people use now, with one character controlled, and the rest on autofollow.

Alt Tabing gives you a better idea what controlling two characters is like movement wise.

So basically, you have no idea what you're talking about, so give up.

Sam on the otherhand has been boxing for years, and while I know he doesn't alt tab, I'm sure his significantly larger amount of experience, and more sophisticated controls make up for this. So do me a favor, and stop cluttering up my thread.

[unit187]

lol I probably have bigger experience of controlling my body (I mean moving hands in different dirrections and such since I train it every week because the kind of sport I practice requires it time by time) then you and Sam alltogether.

And yes, I was playing with alt+tab some time so I know what is it and how it goes.

But well, looks like you have great multiboxing talent (O.o). So I hope you shows us some cool pvp video in a few monthes.

[Zaelar]

You aren't controlling two characters at a time when you alt+tab, just switching between the two very quickly.

Auto-attack won't kill a moving target, and leaving one on auto-attack while moving the other is controlling one character.

To accomplish what you want to accomplish, you might not need to control both at the same time, alt+tab might be enough. It seems what you want is simply real time control of two characters, and not anything specific in game though.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Im not saying you cannot give the illusion you are moving two characters similtanously but the fact is that you will only be looking at one screen at a time. And the hand that works with that screen will be moving while the other hand will not be ....

Granted you can look from one screen to the other faster then I can switch a single screen to another character, and Ill grant that you can, with a lot of practice, possibly use both hands on a controler equally good.

Nonetheless, there does not seem to be a controler that is also a mouse, that works like a normal mouse. Probably you can map mouse movement to keys but ... What would be nice is a programable keypad like the Fang that has a mouse on the bottom and can be moved like one. Or a keypad with a trackball in it.


And the practice part is like moving to a Quwerty keybaord from your regular one. Sure quarty keybaords allow faster typing but by the time you learn it as good as your current one it would be years.



Well there is a keypad with trackball:

http://www.b4udirect.com/home/product/00040518/TRUST.htm

[Steph]

I would say your best bet are two of these:
http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1324

In essence you have enough keys there to move your char and use all your abilities. You can also save some custom camera positions and hotkey them to do away with mouse look. This would allow you to move and act using only one hand per char.

On the note of other multiboxers controlling only one char at a time when using broadcasting or similar setups with all chars in one place, I think you can see it more as someone using five chars like one char. Usually mages or warlocks dont come with a 'xyzbolt' volley or a heal ability. You have the abilities of all chars at your fingertips, integrating them all into one control set is the challenge. Certainly, using a mouse per char to move, turn and click icons is not the way, which is why x-keys et al are so popular, more buttons for more abilities than one char alone has. Sure, in the moment when I press the prayer of healing button, it can be argued that I am playing the priest. But, what about when I am pressing my blast nova/hellfirex3/shield mage+prayer of healing button. What am I playing then? =]

[Thaeds]

Interesting! The combo trackball and gamepad might be what I'm looking for... Has anyone tried to use a small trackball like that to aim in an FPS before? Curious how it would handle.

I found this in another thread.

http://www.combimouse.com/How%20works.htm

It's basically a mouse with a keyboard on top. It looks so lame though dunno if I could bring myself to use it, haha. If I got two though I might be set =-P assuming you can custom map the keys.

Thanks for recommending the X7G100, but I'm looking for something that really does have mouselook. Movement with keys simply isn't fluid enough for me to have fun.

And to make it clear, and less debatable, lets change my goal from controlling movement for two characters at once, to having all of the controls for two characters movement right at my finger tips at the same time. Really that's all I need, learning how will happen, or not.

[Zaelar]

All you can do then is left handed + right handed mouse two different characters at the same time, unless you're willing to give up mouse movement. All thats left is finding mice with enough buttons for both hands.

[Thaeds]

There are other options, like joysticks, or one joystick and using a hat switch for controlling the second characters movement.

Two mice is not the only way it can be done, but it could very well be the best way.

Anyone know of a mouse that is either ambidextrous, or comes in a righty and lefty version that had 10+ buttons?

[Djarid]

Guys,

there are a lot of naysayers in here ;) Let the man try it...

Thaeds, what about an Xbox 360 controller? doesn't that have 2x joysticks on it?

from a multitasking point of view, I can sort of understand where you are coming from... I have trained up my peripheral vision (for motorbike racing) so that I can focus concentration on areas that are not in my centre of vision.

I personally find that the while I can coordinate my hands independently it take such a huge effort of concentration that for something like a game I would be utterly useless... perhaps with perseverance though that effort could be reduced sufficiently for me to actually enjoy the experience! ;)

good luck in your quest and please update us with your progress

[Thaeds]

An Xbox controller does have two joysticks, but I think I could get a lot more buttons on two real joysticks, but I think that still might not be enough buttons, lol.

My current idea is a Nostromo N52 in my left hand, and a mouse in my right, using the Dpad on the nostromo for my 2nd characters movement, and the mouse/wasd on the nostromo keys for my primary characters movement.

This has the effect of fairly poor control of my 2nd character... only turn and back/forward movement, but it does allow me to have a decent number of hotkeys.

I will most likely be using a footpad for additional shift states, so that I can get enough buttons for both characters. Also, if I don't have mirror image control (read dual mice or dual joysticks) I will need a button to shift between characters, because my 2nd character will always have inferior control than my first.

I'm still really wanting to find a way for total control on both characters if anyone has any ideas =-). (and 20ish buttons!)

[Thaeds]

Right so I've discovered two items which might allow me to control two separate characters movements at once.

http://www.sandiotech.com/sandio_product.php

This is a mouse with 3 joysticks attached, made to work in 3d environments, providing typical X and Y axis that all mice have, as well as six other joystick style axis. 8 Axis in all, although the way it is set up, two of the axis are unable to be used at the exact same time... So really there are 6 axes always available, and one which sometimes is.

http://www.3dconnexion.com/3dmouse/spacenavigator.php

This device has six axis in all. All of its axis handle like a joystick though. This is a disadvantage, as everyone who has played an FPS knows that they play better with mouse control than xbox style (joystick control). Just lets you aim and turn quicker.

I am curious if it is even possible to have axis controls on these devices fall through to other games running on my PC. I assume if they can be programmed as keystrokes it would be possible, but aiming via keystrokes is suicide...

Anyway what do you guys think of these two devices for controlling two characters movement?