The nukable toplist!

[magwo]

I was hoping we could assemble a list of good first/second kills for 4+1 shaman teams. Here's my take - feel free to comment and I'll refine and update the list.

Last update 2008-08-06.

Shadow priest: 10/10. Has no counters, will just die with enough dps and purge. Hunter: 9/10. Does not circle you like meelee, expect the Feign Death. Warrior: 9/10. Expect the spell reflect, and use purge on it. Doomkin druid: 9/10: Usually a very immobile target due to having cast time based dps. Easily killed.
Feral druid: 8/10. Quite easy kill, most feral druids are bad and don't realize they need to LoS to not die. Elemental shaman: 8/10. Purge the grounding, then they have no counter and will die pretty fast. Enhancement shaman: 7/10. "Nukable".
Resto shaman: 7/10. Durable but nukable. Often forgets to refresh grounding totem while in defensive healing mode - bad idea. Mage: 7/10. Needs a very fast nuke or you will bite the ice block. Resto druid: 6/10. Not very hard to kill, but will many times run away and LoS you.
Retri paladin: 6/10. Surprise him and he will miss the bubble. Holy paladin: 5/10. Durable but vulnerable to spell damage. As with retri paladin, needs to be surprised. Rogue: 3/10. A little bit better now that Cheat Death has been downgraded. Still you have CoS and Vanish to consider. Usually very hard to kill. Warlock SL/SL: 2/10. No real counters, but does not die from a normal nuke combo. Can be a nightmare to kill if he has 2 healers. Disc priest: 2/10. Too much passive crit defense. Needs a long lightning bolt/purge spam to die.

Like I said.. feel free to comment.. I would really appreciate if we could make this into an accurate and informative list that you could look through before hitting 5v5.

[Skrimshaw]

CL the locks pet and he is no different than a mage with a bit more hps.

[magwo]

CL the locks pet and he is no different than a mage with a bit more hps.Yes well.. nuking the pet also sends a very clear signal of what's about to happen.. so I'm not sure.

[Nixi]

I feel that a warrior is easier than a mage/paladin to nuke because when he uses his spell reflect you'll see him switch weapons. With a paladin or mage they pop it without warning. A warrior wielding a shield is is of equal rating to a pally/mage, but if he's trying to pull a fast one on you , he's not nearly as fast as the other two (mage/pally).

Where do you think druids fit on this list?

I agree with most of it. Except why are resto shamans so durable? I've got less than 200 games under my belt but I don't remember having a problem killing any shamans if the grounding totem is down.

[Boylston]

I might reorganize it a bit like the following:
Warrior: Getting the MS debuff out of the way is nice early on. Purge+Soften+4xEM-NS-CL-Boom to get first kill and splash damage on others
Hunter: They don't bounce in between your team like melees do. Just be ready to mouse target the feigned hunter-- I find that them feigning tends to screw up their heal support more than it screws up my DPS.
DPS Shaman, Shadow priest: Take out some DPS without a great immunity skill
Mage, Ret Pally: Force the bubble/block and then kill them when they're out of it.
Healers next, with easiest to kill Shamans and Paladins, then Priests and Druids as most annoying
Save rogues and warlocks until the very end...Really, experience and real-time judgement are the key here, as is target-switching. A real battle for us might work something like the following:

1.) Warrior charges in, purge/fire nova/LB spam until he's killable with the EM-NS-CL combo. Kill him and evaluate battlefield while helping out the healer and topping everyone off.

2.) Target holy paladin, launch 1-2 volleys until he bubbles.

3.) Switch to hunter, lay into him until he's dead (which will be easier since the healers are now topping off pally).

4.) Reapply totems, bloodlust, re-top off anyone who needs it.

5.) Switch to mage, hit with 1-2 volleys until ice block is used.

6.) Kill Paladin healer now that his bubble is gone and he's frozen in place trying to heal mage

7.) Kill any other remaining rez-capable enemies.

8.) Mop up remaining members...

These are just some of the thoughts/strategies that unfold dynamically on the battlefield. I like to have a good list of 2-3 classes that are nice alpha targets, but even that can sometimes be blinding. For example, you will need to switch it up against some heavy-healing teams in order to get your first kill (or two). I also find that forcing classes with immunity powers to use them early is often key. I ALWAYS pop the "charging paladin bait" member with at least one LB volley in hopes that they actually bubble and I can kill them easily as a second or third target. Same with mages... the good thing about ice block is that they aren't DPSing you during that time period, which is generally helpful.

Play smart, play flexible, and know when to alternate burst DPS with patience, cross-healing your partner, and playing the positional game to camp bodies or guard against the rez.

[Alemi]

I was hoping we could assemble a list of good first/second kills for 4+1 shaman teams. Here's my take - feel free to comment and I'll refine and update the list.

Shadow priest: 10/10. Has no counters, will just die with enough dps and purge. Elemental/enh shaman: 8/10. Get rid of the grounding, then they have no counter and will die pretty fast. Retri paladin: 7/10. Surprise him and he will miss the bubble. Hunter: 7/10. A smart hunter will mess up your macros with Feign Death.
Mage: 7/10. Needs a very fast nuke or you will bite the ice block. Warrior: 6/10. A well timed spell reflect can mess you up. Holy paladin: 5/10. Durable but vulnerable to spell damage. As with retri paladin, needs to be surprised. Rogue: 5/10. A little bit better now that Cheat Death has been downgraded. Still you have CoS and Vanish to consider. Warlock SL/SL: 4/10. No real counters, but does not die from a normal nuke combo. Can be a nightmare to kill if he has 2 healers.
Resto shaman: 3/10. Very very durable. Disc priest: 2/10. Too much passive crit defense. Needs a long lightning bolt/purge spam to die
Resto shamans have nature's guardian, but that's isn't enough to stop the kill. Shamanastic Rage however from Enhanchement shamans will. I think you have those a little reversed. And you can hear a distinct sound for spell reflect (or just get spell alerter). As soon as I hear that, i purge (reflect it to myself), and then ns/em/cl. I've never had a warrior spell reflect that onto me. Hunters i always set as my focus so i can hit my /target focus macro and start the nuking (also when they "die" i hit it anyway just to make sure it wasn't a well timed FD).

[magwo]

Updated a little based on comments.

[Ellay]

Hunter are very easy to nuke, just set them as your focus target on your main and you can ignore the feign death. I'd give them a 9/10
Enhancement shaman is nukable but not that high on the list. 7.5
Resto Shaman can be moved up to 7/10 at the very least
SL/SL lock is probably about a 2/10

[shockernub]

Ignore any and all druids? lol

I find resto druids to be a bit of a pain , purge heals them, and their HOTs are crazy. They are pretty easy 4v1, but in 5s I've found them hard,,,, but then again, I'm finding pretty much everyone hard :whistling:

[magwo]

Updated, and added druids.

[Nixi]

I like the updated list. I have similar feelings when it comes to all of those class/talent combos.

Prior to reading this thread the massive amount of Disc priests kind of had me thinking Priest = hard to kill. I've only ran into a handful of Shadow priests here and there, and today when one was in the lineup I remembered his 10/10 'nukable' rating. Needless to say he was the first to die and he went down quick. Druids are another class that I haven't seen much of, so I've really taken a lot out of this post.

:thumbsup:

[Dominian]

Ignore any and all druids? lol

I find resto druids to be a bit of a pain , purge heals them, and their HOTs are crazy. They are pretty easy 4v1, but in 5s I've found them hard,,,, but then again, I'm finding pretty much everyone hard :whistling:

I play druid myself and 1 lifebloom wont keep a player up against 4 elemental shamans.

You should be able to purge 8 buffs and 5 or 6 if he specced for the talent that increase dispell resistance. Belive me its not easy to handle burst as a druid without NS so pressuring them to use it then start over is the right way to go. Even with swiftmend the druid needs to have the hots ON the target before you start the dps.

[shockernub]

Ignore any and all druids? lol

I find resto druids to be a bit of a pain , purge heals them, and their HOTs are crazy. They are pretty easy 4v1, but in 5s I've found them hard,,,, but then again, I'm finding pretty much everyone hard :whistling:

I play druid myself and 1 lifebloom wont keep a player up against 4 elemental shamans.

You should be able to purge 8 buffs and 5 or 6 if he specced for the talent that increase dispell resistance. Belive me its not easy to handle burst as a druid without NS so pressuring them to use it then start over is the right way to go. Even with swiftmend the druid needs to have the hots ON the target before you start the dps.

I think a lot of my difficulty with the druids is when i switch to them with my NS on CD. Purging them once is fine, but usually their NS/big heal will top them off from one round of LBs. I think a lot of my issues is being outgeared atm. Even when I insta kill one, I have a difficult time transitioning that into another 4 dead, lol, unless those 4 are my shaman. I probably fail to purge enough, but it's a tough choice purge vs dps. Oh well, points at 1300 in 5v5 are still better than 1500 in 2s. :D

[Mokoi]

watch for ret pally wings, and then nuke him, he can not bubble

easy 8-9/10 cause without wings hes useless in DPS, and with them he's dead no matter what.

they have NO Hp and NO bubble.