ok i serieus need some help in 5vs5

[Masterdenk]

Hi guys !

Ok so a few weeks ago I dinged 70 started pvp and arenas of course, in the beginning I thought ok we are getting pwned in the beginning because noob gear / expersiens.

So I’m building up my gear got like half merciless. And we are still getting pwned. I have a druid as healer he has full season 3 gear.

60 games played in total won 6 games. Rating 1216

What’s happening in our arenas?

Warrior charged in chop chop chop dead. With rogue mostly

Rogue pops up cheap shot on main + cloak of shadows. I chain heal myself and by the time I’ve tried to purge them I’m dead.

Dual mages aoe-ing the shit out of us.

Triple paladin?

Maybe it’s because I’m on a sucky server (genjuros very low 5vs5 teams and the teams that are playing have way better gear.) or I just suck. At least I’m very very desperate I’m not enjoying this anymore 3 weeks now of getting owned every game

I watched elay's training movies. but ppl on the server know him, they know what's coming and he got way way way better gear.

again I am really clueless what to do any tips most appreciated

Cheers,

Occy

[entoptic]

don't purge! You do way to much dmg per hit to waste mana and time on purge. DPS is so damn high you should be one shotting people left and right.

Are you setting up totems?

Stop chain healing and use lesser heals. Better yet have your healer start to heal and you focus on dps? Do you use bloodlust? Are you using trinkets? Are you LOSing the enemy?

When a rogue attacks me I drop 5 fire nova totems and an earthbind totem. Seems to mess up the rogue enough to just shock him once and he dies.

A warrior should go down like drunk in a fight.

[cepheus]

don't purge! You do way to much dmg per hit to waste mana and time on purge. DPS is so damn high you should be one shotting people left and right.

Dont purge? What rating are you at then?

My expirience in arenas is that it is crucial to purge. Atleast if your opponent have HP increasing buff like King,Fortitude and MOTW. Using one global cooldown to purge off everybuff, so it makes it more likely that you oneshot someone when you burn your cooldowns sounds like a fair tradeoff to me.

I am currently just below 1700 and I find it very hard to "oneshot people left and right" at this rating atleast.

[merujo]

My expirience in arenas is that it is crucial to purge. Atleast if your opponent have HP increasing buff like King,Fortitude and MOTW.

specialy if u opponent has 4 grounding totems :P
purge is a huge part of the key to win. in the heat of battle, ull start to find time to use it, cause thats where ur win sometimes rely. try to kill a priest without purging him, and them try to kill it using purge, and ull see the diference. not to mention, u have 4 purges, thats 8 buffs off (im a math god), u really shouldnt put purge aside.


@Masterdenk: half merciless? whats it suppose to mean? u have enchanted gear, missing a weap, shield? or missing 2 set pieces?
cause, i didnt started having success until i got the full set, weap, shield, boots, neck, belt, top enchants... skill matters, but gear is better :P
Do some work on ur gear (give us ur armory link).
If they are rushing u, make ur spawn, the battle place, pop totems and heroism/bloodlust.
Try founding a new team and see if u dont get gay comps like 3 mages or 3 paladins ? lol

[Nixi]

I found some really strange comps when i dipped down into the 1400's after freshly starting arenas. Those comps would tear my group up now, WAY worse than the s3/s4 guys do. (3 mages?? gg)

I have to fully recommend gearing up first. That means LOTS of battlegrounds. If you are unlucky like me and have 10-15 minute queue times, it sucks, and it sucks hard but that's the only way to get ready to move up. I noticed a huge difference getting the 4 piece set bonus on my main, in addition to pushing spell dmg up to 800 average across the board plus 300+ resil. You can't do that with a couple pieces of S2 here and non-pvp pieces there. I've got PLENTY of holes in my gear, but I've got the foundations to make it past 1600.

Armory links would be cool.

I'm actually a newb and I still use
/castrandom Lightning Bolt,Purge,Grounding Totem

I've bound purge and grounding totems to seperate keys so I can get in the habbit of using them, but the /castrandom macro has put my team up to a 1700+ rating so... :whistling:

[Elektric]

First of you need to understand what your doing wrong. The best way to do that is to watch Ellay. What does he do in his videos that you dont? In Nagrand did you see how much time that warrior had to chop chop? Absolutely zero. Ellay used our Quadbox Shaman strength and exploited their weakness. A warrior running out in the middle of the arena away from a healer is like a christmas tree full of lights. LIGHT HIM UP! Purge away, lightning bolt followed by the NUKE destroys almost anyone in game.

When you watch Ellay's video dont watch in awe, I know its hard to do but trust me the skill is in the details. If I could SUM up what it takes to be great with this composition it would be: Timing, Kill Order, Landing the Nuke (this means use purge), and patience. If you dont have any of those, you are going to lose over and over, these aren't nice to haves they're necessities in winning with this setup.

If the warrior is charging in and chop chopping you to death. Theres a bunch of things that could be happening:





The warrior could be toying with you to blow your Nuke while they healers already have a big heal charged up. Now you have a warrior full of rage that will rip through your guys.
Not having gear, all those pieces of PvP gear really add up against the melee with the extra armor.
Your healer might not be geared enough to heal through the damage. You might need to toss a lesser heal, like other people have posted, you will die everytime you chain heal to survive burst damage.
Are you keeping Bloodlust up? My experience while I was undergeared was that bloodlust made healing through damage and dealing it much better, If I played things right my healer or I would go oom before I died.
Mages AoE'ing. Mages cannot be allowed to feel like they can even approach you. Its Purge Purge Purge...still no ice block, NUKE + ES =gg. I played a the top 5v5 on my server last night, Top 7 in the BG group. They sent their mage up front to do just that, AOE the crap out of the dumb shaman standing together. I purged everything off of him, he didnt Ice Block and he died quicker then his bunny hopping a$$ could hit the ground. After I do this to a Mage, the are never again the same. They iceblock after a full purge, and throw nothing but Ice Lances. Mages are dangerous and if you let them wind up frostbolts and keep those grounding totems up. Make Mages afraid to show face and you wont have to worry about AoE. Yeah there's two, but if you drop the first, the last thing the healer is going to be saying over vent to the Mage still alive is "Go in there and AoE ill heal you threw it."

Instant kills cause panic. Stay calm and capitilize on their mistakes.

My favorite Quote from Ellay is "There is no counter for 4xShaman and a Healer." If nothing else believe this. Believe your losing because you're making mistakes, because the other team is exploiting your patience and making you play their game. Gear allows for you to make mistakes and live through them. When you are in full PvP gear it will help, but it wont be the difference between you winning and losing against a good team. In the 5v5 bracket one mistake could be a loss even against a horribly rated team.

Everytime I watch Ellay's video I pick up something new. Last night I had a little trouble with a triple melee team in nagrand and realized I was standing in the wrong spot of the little cubby. Position matters, thats why there's different maps. Learning how to play and where to start the encounter from will be the difference in the top rated teams. In the 1800 bracket I have to be careful where I kill people. There's no worse spot then to kill someone on the bottom of the Blade's Edge Arena with three Rezzers still up. They find every possible way to LoS you and get the rez off. I think this is a big reason why Ellay says, OWN the bridge.

And the more I read your post the more it sounds like you are still wearing questing greens. Grind out that PvP gear and keep arena'ing. As long as you keep learning from your losses its worthwhile regardless of your rating.

P.S. Elektric's wall of text crits the dual-boxing forums once again, soz for the long post.

[merujo]

good reading man!
i think u can get some conclusions from it, get geared and learn more.

[Masterdenk]

Hey guys

First I want to thank everyone that replied on my post. You have giving me faith again

First of all my armory:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Genjuros&n=Occyrocky ('http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Genjuros&n=Occyrocky')

Ok ill try to answer everything

Totems I use:

2x poison, 3xtremor placed in different time so they will mostly break the fear in the second. 3xgrounding, 1x earthbind, 1x wrath of air, 1x mana totem and 1 healing wave.
Trying to swap from searing to magma totems because well I'm not sure about searing.

OK I’m using chain heal indeed and got a panic heal ns healing wave. I will change chain healing for lesser healing wave. (Do I just target myself or assist lesser heal?)

If I rogue pops with cloak of shadow the fire totem isn’t working but I guess just wait a bit than throw it. Good tip!

The problems I have with warriors is reflect. I almost insta killed myself with that haha

Ok ill study the movies from Ellay more. And check if I see things I’m not doing after playing 60 games.

Well I tried it once in arenas there was a lock running away from the group. And behind me in nagrand arena, I tried to kill him he was far away from his healer. So ill bolt him and try chain lightning if he runs away what do I do? Do I chase him? Or retreat?

My gear needs allot of upgrades, this is my healer. http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Genjuros&n=Ace ('http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Genjuros&n=Ace')
he’s having real troubles healing me. I guess I die to fast.

In the beginning I really had trouble doing all those things together using bloodlust - purge - nuke and keeping the totems alive.
Know its fine I got bloodlust up purging and nuking till I die, with healing myself.

Yea I tried purging the mages and killing them but frost nova + aoe is very annoying to still even target the mage with all the characters.

Again I want to thank everybody for the tips and tactics. I’m lucky the que's for me are not so long av = instant but I think that is everywhere other bg are different between 4 and 10 min.

Thanks guys and ill keep u updated.

[merujo]

just work a bit more on ur gear, ull notice ur survive longer to really get to learn something. never give up man.

[scottig]

practice practice practice

[Nixi]

I looked at your gear. Farm honor 24/7 with all your free time and don't bother to constantly run arena's because it'll just kill your confidence. When my equipment was the same as yours, the best i ever did was like 2-9 (if that).

Keep practicing, but I can tell you right now that gear is a huge issue in your survivability and burst potential.


just work a bit more on ur gear, ull notice ur survive longer to really get to learn something. never give up man.

qft

[Tizer]

Keep at it MD, it all comes with gear and practice. You can use the excuse that you need gear, because it is very true. it wont be until you are in near full S2 that you will start to turn things around.

Start looking into the Orange gems for your gear, the ones you are using are not ideal (imo)

Potent Nobel Topaz (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24059) is a great gem and will only set you back around 50g a piece. If you have plenty of cash feel free to step up to the epic gems. Personally i dont think its worth the extra gold for an extra 1 spell and 1 crit. On my server the difference is 250g between the blue and epic gem. If i start getting a good rating then yes i might reconsider it.

These are my armoury links. All the characters are the same.

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&n=Tilc%C3%AB
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&n=Tilc%C3%A8
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&n=Tilc%C3%A9
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&n=Tilc%C3%AA

I managed to get over 1575 last night and got myself new bracers. Its only been since last week that i have changed things around and started moving in a positive direction myself.

I think this is mostly because i have started to keep my cool, stay inside my totem farm and make my NS / EM / CL macro count.

I've started to view all games as 5v4 now and i have a positive attiude, which is more dangerous than anything your shaman are capable of.

I come from a FPS background, if you think for one minute the other people are better than you, you are dead meat. So start your arena games with a positive approach, just dont get cocky ;)

[Feehza]

Elektric.
About a bombing Mage:

paly/priest/Mage/ + 2 random Class
A mage with permanent overheal from a paladin and a priest + Painsuppression is not stopppable.
Some healer with this setup go in panic mode when you try to nuke down the other DDs.
But i met team which only heal the bombing mage, no matter whats happend to the other members.
You can purge painsupression ... if your unlucky you spend 3-4 casts to purge it. With frostnova on your feet your unable to come in healers range, but ... you are forced to nuke the mage.
This CAN be a problem if the opponent play this tactic very well.

Warrior: since 1700 i never see a warrior charging me up. They hide like a hunter behind a pillar. Warriors know that they have no defense. Spellreflect is a joke against our searing totems, an enemy groundingtotem get destroyed easily via purge.

I cant admit Ellays statement: "There is no counter for 4boxer+Heal"
My oppinion: there always exist a counter when the opponent have a wider range then you. In a lame game with disciplined enemies using heavy LOS and Range you will die, its just a question of time.

[Nixi]

In a lame game with disciplined enemies using heavy LOS and Range you will die, its just a question of time.

Watershield + low rank chain heal + Mana spring totem seems to keep me up. They will play those games for 15-20 minutes and I haven't died yet. I've only ran into one team that did this incredibly well, but the end result wasn't our team dying from being pelted to death.

[merujo]

As for mages, u can see them coming right ?
Assuming its one, purge him on his way to u. U still have 35% chance to dispell the PS, @8 dispells per second lol...
No mana shield, no ice barrier, no pain supression + ur +350 resillience, i'd say u have to making him panic and ice block. u can even use some magma and fire nova.

I know! in theory everything is beautiful! :D but unless their 2 mages, or 1 mage and 1 warlock seeding, i think u can win.

as for LOS, u gotta use ur tools. Ur sidekick must be able to do something. Mind control, stun, cyclone, this can prevent them from sticking with their group, or running away. I know its very difficult, but once u've done 500 arenas, u'll see everything counts. My sidekick is a Draenei Priest, and he's chastice is priceless.
Gotta use all ur tools i think.

[Feehza]

As for mages, u can see them coming right ?

No, we talk about good teams. Yes u can detect when the other team start his attack (Priest shield some of his members, everyone get hots, etc).
Finally the mage gets invisible ... ok you can change the possition slightly, but it doesnt help a lot cuz you are rely more on a good position as the other team.
The Mage appear with a frostnova, your not able to cast, cuz he strafes like crazy around you (you should assume he strafe faster then a keyboard-turn).
Yes its right, you have to purge it until PS is gone. Put out nova-totems and hope that your big-shot detonate and throw 4 shocks. I confirm, its the best tactic.
But dont be to effusive, when you kill 5 times in a row such a bombing-Setup.

BTW: you only played 6x games with your shaman since you hit 70 ;)





Assuming its one, purge him on his way to u. U still have 35% chance to dispell the PS, @8 dispells per second lol...
No mana shield, no ice barrier, no pain supression + ur +350 resillience, i'd say u have to making him panic and ice block. u can even use some magma and fire nova.

I know! in theory everything is beautiful! :D but unless their 2 mages, or 1 mage and 1 warlock seeding, i think u can win.

as for LOS, u gotta use ur tools. Ur sidekick must be able to do something. Mind control, stun, cyclone, this can prevent them from sticking with their group, or running away. I know its very difficult, but once u've done 500 arenas, u'll see everything counts. My sidekick is a Draenei Priest, and he's chastice is priceless.
Gotta use all ur tools i think.

Its not only 65% dispell-protection for PS, its a 65% dispell-protection for all buffs.
Assume the mage have 7 magical buffs + ps.
So you will dispell 2,8 buffs per purge. After the THIRD purge-cast the mage is without any buff.
This cost you 4,5 seconds. If the other group has a grounding totem you need 6 seconds.

[merujo]

around 60 games, 50% win ratio, and now only getting top geared, id say its not bad. plus, it aint 60 arenas overall :P
i've lost games against mages, only when i gave them space. if a mage uses invisibility, its time to switch place, and i dont think the mage will be going after u without exact directions, plus getting out of sight from his healers.

i dont have much complaints bout aoe mages really, i've managed to keep distance, or kill them when in range. my nightmare is bombing fears, after fear, after fear, after fear, that causes me to loose all the handle.
and the 1 hour LOS games, those make me cry.

[Masterdenk]

Thanks again for the replies guys :)

Ill keep my patients and its av weekend here so it's honor farming time :D