Triple Boxers CAN make a difference!

[Scelesti]

Here is the product of turtling Galv with three arcane mages @ 82 in the 84 bracket.
I got wrecking ball on one of my characters. Turtling Galv is my new AV strat. If you can get anyone to join you, its even better.

[EaTCarbS]

I always say if you're gonna run three, you may as well run four.

Also, not to poop your party but max level is a whole different ball park. However, I wish you success with all of your boxing ventures

[Scelesti]

I actually did something extremely similar on my warlock the previous night. Granted my warlock is in ilevel 400 PvE gear. I basically just went in as demo and popped all my AoE cooldowns. Got like 4 killing blows and almost 1 mil damage at Galv. Its what honestly gave me the idea to try it on my mages. All the mirror images make it ridiculous. I had like 10 Killing Blows at Galv before I died. They still wiped, so success is success. Like you said 85 is a different ballpark, but I think this strat will continue to work. IMO horde only wins AV when we turtle it, and I'd rather be in a turtle game anyways

[Ualaa]

The AV map is not balanced.

In a PvE race, for both sides and with equally skilled opponents, the alliance has an easier time.
The horde cannot bypass the final bridge; that is the only way into the base.
The alliance can cut up a hill, rather than follow the path in the horde base and bypass 3/4's of the hostile NPC's.
Plus after going through the structure, you can follow the path between the two towers or go to the right and through the break in the fence... then get into the right tower and take almost no missile damage.

In a PvP contest, where a choke is forced at some point and then battle commences...
Either side can hold the hill area around Icewing Buker/Stonehearth Graveyard.
If the offense stops at that point, the alliance burns nothing and cannot take out a Captain... while the horde get to take out Stonehearth Bunker and the Alliance Captain, for a substantial resource lead.
The Iceblood Tower/Iceblood Graveyard for the horde is probably the tightest choke in the game, but the alliance cannot hold it as the horde can run through the graveyard and jump off the edge.
About the only really strong choke for the alliance, is their bridge... which sacrifices the entire map essentially except their final two bunkers.




Basically...

If both sides play for PvE, the alliance usually wins.
If both sides play for PvP, the horde usually wins.
If either side plays for PvP, while the other goes for a PvE race, the PvP side wins.

[valkry]

The AV map is not balanced.

In a PvE race, for both sides and with equally skilled opponents, the alliance has an easier time.
The horde cannot bypass the final bridge; that is the only way into the base.
The alliance can cut up a hill, rather than follow the path in the horde base and bypass 3/4's of the hostile NPC's.
Plus after going through the structure, you can follow the path between the two towers or go to the right and through the break in the fence... then get into the right tower and take almost no missile damage.

In a PvP contest, where a choke is forced at some point and then battle commences...
Either side can hold the hill area around Icewing Buker/Stonehearth Graveyard.
If the offense stops at that point, the alliance burns nothing and cannot take out a Captain... while the horde get to take out Stonehearth Bunker and the Alliance Captain, for a substantial resource lead.
The Iceblood Tower/Iceblood Graveyard for the horde is probably the tightest choke in the game, but the alliance cannot hold it as the horde can run through the graveyard and jump off the edge.
About the only really strong choke for the alliance, is their bridge... which sacrifices the entire map essentially except their final two bunkers.




Basically...

If both sides play for PvE, the alliance usually wins.
If both sides play for PvP, the horde usually wins.
If either side plays for PvP, while the other goes for a PvE race, the PvP side wins.

Disagree, I believe horde have an easier time.

Playing for PVP depends on who has the most healers, they usually win. PVE, whoever has the best back capping team and lack of retards on noob hill. And a propper PVE race will leave 6-8 in each tower, hopefully anyway lol. pretty hard to back cap against 8 with resil these days. Any rogue can escape combat multiple times and prevent death for easily over 2 mins if he isnt stunned

Missile dmg with gear is negligible now, and trying to come up that path between the two towers is hectic. If you DONT cut up that hill, you get so many high hp npcs on you it's not funny (whereas the Ally ones in our base are easily avoided). And, you are running up a blind slope (similar to the one just south of SP GY), horde up the top get the same (narrower path even) bottleneck as the ally bridge, and can fire on people that cant see them back.

NOT TO MENTION, retard hill for Alliance is no where near the GY, whereas horde can sit right outside the ally bunker and protect the GY from ninja back cappers just fine.

Bunkers/towers, you can los enemies in both, but if you get fear bombed anywhere in that tower, if you cant break it, they will defend cap it, whereas in a bunker you are highly likely to either be in LoS still or 2 steps away from being so.

And finally for now, horde in Dreks room can LoS in that curve at the front of the inner chamber, so attempting to kill them will often result in drek aggroing, whereas ally defending vann are in a nice big open square and can be fired upon from the entrance no matter where they stand.

PS: galv >> bal

[Ualaa]

Missile damage might be negligible towards the end of an expansion.
But it is also much deadlier at the start of an expansion, especially without much gearing... or at any point in an expansion, for a newly leveled character who is gearing up.

And the map exposes horde to far more missile fire than alliance, whether the missile fire hurts a lot or is just an inconvenience which delays capping a bunker.



In a PvE race...
Whether a side leaves 5 per tower/bunker, until it burns, which both sides usually ask for in /BG Chat... or a tower is relatively unprotected.

The alliance can run into a tower, ignore the archers and cap the flag with all of the archers alive; anyone can run into the tower and LoS the archers easily.
The horde have a much harder time with the alliance archers in a bunker, before being able to cap the flag; it is very hard to LoS the archers and cap a bunker without killing an archer or two.
Slight advantage on each tower to the alliance, resulting in faster burnt tower/bunkers for the alliance, and that edge translates into attacking the final boss a little sooner.

The Captains are immaterial in a PvE race, as resources won't determine the outcome; but rather the death of the General.

Either side can backcap, or let their towers/bunkers burn.
And there is, or is not, backcapping roughly an equal amount of time for each faction.
So backcapping isn't really a factor in saying one side is superior to the other, when in a PvE race.
Sure it is an impact in individual games, but overall is an equal impact for each side.









In a PvP match, where the PvE race is ignored...
Sure if one side has 10 healers and the other side has 2, the side with 10 will often win.
But it is as likely to be 10v2 and 2v10.

In a game where the gearing, healing, melee vs ranged count etc is equal...
And if you look at every AV run this entire season, across every BG in both EU and US servers...
The sides are going to average out.



It doesn't change the fact that the horde have two excellent choke points.
If the choke is set, the alliance has a very narrow funnel to go through.
The alliance has a fairly long distance to get to the choke from their graveyard.
The horde graveyard is right next to the choke, so reinforcements join the PvP much quicker which results in a numerical advantage.
In one of the two chokes, the alliance can burn IBT... in the other, they cannot burn anything nor kill the Captain even... and in these matches, resources are what wins the game.
Coversely the horde are down one bunker/tower with a "small choke" set (IBT/IBGY) but have the rez advantage... or the IWB choke gets the horde a 2 bunker/tower and a Captain advantage.



Flip it around to the alliance choke points...

The bridge is the only point as good as the horde "small choke", but this costs the alliance two bunkers (either side setting up the stronger choke loses the Captain most likely); the alliance stronger choke costs them 75 resources more than the horde's stronger choke... without the advantage of rezzing closer to the battle (Stormpike is about the same distance to the middle of the bridge, as the Dun Baldar graveyard.... instead of Icewing Graveyard vs Snowfall (which is much further back).

And if the alliance goes for the mid-field choke (IceWing Bunker/Stonehearth Graveyard area)...
Which is also the horde's more advanced choke point...
They give up a bunker (Stonehearth) and their Captain... compared to the horde not sacrificing anything for holding this point.
Plus the graveyard is on the wrong side of the choke point for the alliance holding this spot; the horde get much closer reinforcements on their defensive side of the narrow choke... while the alliance gets an easily hit graveyard, in a very open area... but still closer to the battle (just much harder to hold).








I see the Horde with a significant advantage over the Alliance, in PvP style AVs.
And I see the Alliance having a similar advantage over the Horde, when it becomes a PvE race.

[MiRai]

And a propper PVE race will leave 6-8 in each tower, hopefully anyway lol. pretty hard to back cap against 8 with resil these days. Any rogue can escape combat multiple times and prevent death for easily over 2 mins if he isnt stunned

What is a proper PvE race? Two PvE premades fighting each other? Or 40 random people versus 40 random people who are all picked from the queue? Is it even possible to go into a PvP battleground and have a proper PvE race with no PvP involved?

Missile dmg with gear is negligible now, and trying to come up that path between the two towers is hectic. If you DONT cut up that hill, you get so many high hp npcs on you it's not funny (whereas the Ally ones in our base are easily avoided). And, you are running up a blind slope (similar to the one just south of SP GY), horde up the top get the same (narrower path even) bottleneck as the ally bridge, and can fire on people that cant see them back.

I would say the non-Archer NPCs have absolutely nothing to do with map balance but, for sake of argument... Which member of the Alliance, in their right mind, is going to ride through the little camp and not cut up the hill to the base? It's highly unlikely that someone who has never stepped foot into Alterac Valley before comes upon that little camp and ventures in completely alone. They're going to be with other people and they're going to follow those other people as they cut up the hill.

If we do want to argue about unimportant NPCs, then I would like to point out that the Horde NPCs don't even bother you at the Horde base and those in the little camp I spoke of in the last paragraph quickly leash back to where they came from when you ride by. Where as the Alliance NPCs are standing right next to the Aid Station and will need to be killed every time because someone, out of all the people who show up to Dun Baldar, is bound to ride close enough to aggro them.

NOT TO MENTION, retard hill for Alliance is no where near the GY, whereas horde can sit right outside the ally bunker and protect the GY from ninja back cappers just fine.

I'm unsure of how this is an issue of map balance seeing as the graveyard is not out of your sight while standing on that hill. If anyone would like to guard the graveyard, they are more than welcome to stand by the graveyard instead of on the hill.

Bunkers/towers, you can los enemies in both, but if you get fear bombed anywhere in that tower, if you cant break it, they will defend cap it, whereas in a bunker you are highly likely to either be in LoS still or 2 steps away from being so.

While knowing the spot to stand in order to LOS the archers in an Alliance bunker may be common knowledge to you, it is not common knowledge to many, many other people who play Horde -- Alliance bunkers take much longer to cap than Horde towers. If one Alliance comes to capture a tower with one Horde defending... it's pretty much 1v1. If one Horde comes to capture a bunker and one Alliance is defending... it's pretty much 1v1+5 Archers.

You bring Fear into the mix, but you can't do that because that's not map balance. We could say that both a Druid can use Typhoon or a Shaman can use Thunderstorm to knock players from either a tower or a bunker, but class skills don't have anything to do with hard-coded features of the map.

And finally for now, horde in Dreks room can LoS in that curve at the front of the inner chamber, so attempting to kill them will often result in drek aggroing, whereas ally defending vann are in a nice big open square and can be fired upon from the entrance no matter where they stand.

I don't have any experience with this myself because I've only ever played melee but, even if this was true I don't see how this is a game changing feature?

PS: galv >> bal

What? They're both so equally easy... but at least Galv doesn't Ice Block for 4 seconds going completely immune to all damage.

When people say that AV is favored in the side of Alliance they're talking about the time it takes for each faction to arrive at and start a capture timer on the towers/bunkers when, in fact, the Alliance have an easier time starting the timers. When people also talk about imbalance they're talking about the double choke point that is Stormpike Graveyard and that gigantic bridge leading into Dun Baldar. The Horde have no such choke points as both fences leading into the base after Frostwolf Graveyard can be easily jumped. The closest thing to a real choke point that the Horde have would be between Iceblood Tower and Iceblood Graveyard; but even then, Alliance eventually begin trickling through the choke point and splitting up the Horde defenders.

[Fat Tire]

Arguing about AV.......AV! 40v40 isnt player vs player its cluster fuck vs fubar vs snafu. Is this why so many muti boxers prefer AV? I am disappointed.

[Ualaa]

The enjoyment of AV, vs other BG's
I'd think its a combination of a few things...

I picked Shaman, then Druids, then Pally/DK's.
Might go Rets, or back to Druids or stick with Pally/DK's in MoP.

I did not pick Catapults, Demolishers, Glaives or whatever.
Nor do I want to play Helicopters, Bomber Airplanes even if they're wow type planes...

So BG's like IoC, SotA, and that sort where a vehicle can one-shot or two-shot an entire team (early in the expansion), and can still with one player in it take out or significantly hurt a 5-boxer....
Well, those aren't ideal battlegrounds.




Once you have a decent amount of gearing, you can run some 10-man BGs with limited success.
You can run a lot of 15-man BGs, as well.
You're still capable of running the 40-man BG's, with gear...

Until you're somewhat geared, anything smaller than a 40-man virtually guarantees your team will lose.
When 5 of the 15 (or worse 5 of the 10) players on one side are geared horrendously...
Well, the results are usually predictably abysmal.




So that has a lot of boxers staring in AV, because they don't automatically lose it.
Plus there aren't vehicles that can take out your team quite easily.

Once you're geared up...
You can do the PvE race, along with the others.
Or you can force PvP in choke points (or at PvE objectives).
So you get both aspects of the game.

[Fat Tire]

The enjoyment of AV, vs other BG's


Once you're geared up...
You can do the PvE race, along with the others.
Or you can force PvP in choke points (or at PvE objectives).
So you get both aspects of the game.

Yea, I dont buy it. AV is widely regarded as the bg to gear up in and to a lesser degree the other 40 man. Most of the time youre fighting against newbie 85s in greens and people gearing up. The majority of the people could care less who wins and just want the honor so they can get the fuck out of those bgs. Listen people pay their money and they can play anyway they want, but I find it sad that people pay all this money for extra accounts just to win AV and Ualaa I am talking about the large amount of AV screenshots and the like around here and other places. You could give 5 accounts to anyone and they could do well in AV, killing 85s in greens with zero resil is hard and that is all muti boxing AV shows.

Deploying some strategy like holding a pvp choke point is laughable when most players are running around like chickens with their heads cut off or standing frozen like a deer in headlights because the enemy is blocking their path and in general AV is where most people start when they are learning how to pvp beacause it is the most forgiving. Its comparable to a bully, you do it because its easy and the advantages of boxing shine through in AV with focus firing against low resilience newbs and without having to deal with vehicles or more evenly matched skirmishes in smaller bgs,rbgs and arenas.

Pve races only emphasize my point about people wanting to get honor by the quickest means possible for gearing up purposes and could care less about any kind of pvp. Arguing about the imbalances and tactics in AV I find meaningless and boxers boasting about how great they were in AV is hilarious when any simpleton can do it.