Prot paladins - assume the position

[JohnGabriel]

If you don't stand in anything, you wont need a healer. If you make it so only the tank takes more damage, then you wont bring a disc priest. They'll need balance of some sort, which lets face it blizzard has not done a good job at lately.

I don't know, but maybe they just didn't expect everyone to outgear current content so quickly. Its normal to be able to just bring extra dps at the end of the expansions, just not a month in.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I don't know, but maybe they just didn't expect everyone to outgear current content so quickly. Its normal to be able to just bring extra dps at the end of the expansions, just not a month in.

If Mythic + 2, 3, 4, etc. is just a scaling factor, then they could just expand it past 10. Though that won't solve the problem of people not having anything "new" to do.

[Andreauk]

PVE-related thoughts below; if you're PVP-focused, you can skip this post.

General question: why exactly is it wrong to clear a dungeon with 5x tanks? Who is being materially injured, so badly that they need a safe space and emotional counseling because we did something people said we couldn't do?


If my 5x tanks have difficulty surviving (i.e. regularly losing one or two of them to WMD mechanics) on non-pure-melee bosses without a dedicated healer unless I significantly outgear the instance and/or use long-cooldown abilities, what detriment exactly is bringing a healer going to subject them to? Not sure if you've actually played with a healer, but I have with a friend and bringing him along completely trivialized Serpentrix which was driving me crazy trying to complete it as 5x paladins. That evidence would seem to contradict your assertion.

And that is my ultimate question: if people are having fun playing the game as it is, why would you purposely make it less fun for some people because their playstyle offends your individual sense of universal equilibrium? Doesn't seem like a winner to me; sounds more like kow-towing to the tyranny of the squeaky wheel.

My point was not needing a healer at all is crazy.. using 5 of the same spec/class isn't what the game is designed for, and people shouldn't cry or be surprised when they nerf it to the ground. The game isn't balanced around/for boxers at all. Tanks healing each other for full hp is just plain stupid.. I wouldn't be surprised if they nerf or remove that at some point.
As for your healer friend that's no longer total boxing is it? That's having help from someone with a hell of a lot more control over the healer than you would have.

I don't have an issue with peoples class/team boxing choices.. I tried 5 prots myself (wasn't for me).. what I am saying is that if it wasn't for the cheesy mechanics of certain abilities (hand of the protector I'm looking at you) they wouldn't be half as viable, and Prot Pala boxers can't seriously be expecting them to buff/not nerf that cheesyness.

[Andreauk]

If Mythic + 2, 3, 4, etc. is just a scaling factor, then they could just expand it past 10. Though that won't solve the problem of people not having anything "new" to do.

That's why they are reworking the Mythic difficulties for 7.2

[davidmage]

5 Protection paladins is by no way an overpowered bunch of steamrollers which can crush anything and "cheeze" any mechanic due to the self heal. When working to the higher m+ and affixes one will have to utilize all abilities and heals perfectly to manage.

What I feel in the new legion encounters is that most AoE and encounter damage which affects the party can be avoided if you just do it right. Because of that healers now can't heal as much as in previous expansions. I guess the plan is that if dps stand in shit they die, and a healer can't compensate by being uberskilled and carrying the party, and I like this.

This has however led to that often a healer is not even needed, because it is possible to survive fine if you avoid stuff. And with 4 dps and a tank which also does dps, bosses just die fast. (which had proved to be a very good setup)

So it's not 5 paladins (or 5 tanks in general) which is unbalanced. Hell I'm overgearing mythics by now, but that doesnt mean I can stand in Serpentrix shit and just heal through it.

My 5 hunters for example have killed some mythic+ bosses around 30 seconds, not even giving time for mechanics to kick in. And with some fine legendaries, hunter can heal for 70% of total health with every FD, + other cools. I bet many classes have nice stuff, I can't have been extremely lucky choosing the 2 most OP classes/specs in legion. And I know for a fact that many classes dps the shit out of BM hunter.

So it's no surprise to see the 4dps 1 tank groups performing well, because probably any class can crush it and have their own way of surviving without needing a healer. Enough skill and gear, most classes will kill the boss before dying from encounter AoE, regardless if you are prot-pala-dps-tank or not.

Fair point. That said, if you gear up your DPS enough, you can blow things up so fast that mechanics cease to be a major hindrance. I'm pretty sure you could almost run anything through 5-man mythics after gearing up in heroic/mythic raids.

[Andreauk]

You've even said yourself x5 tank setup is by far the easiest. Yeah a Hunter can self heal, but they can also super fast rez their pets over and over, and the pet takes the majority of the damage! Not to mention Misdirection..

I'm talking about boxing.. you're bringing group talk into this that involves 5 actual players - they have much more coordination, and can avoid things far easier, and need far less healing.. and you are playing the best 2 setups for boxing this expac... you must know this?

What dps x4 with a tank (they control also), can clear any content equal or higher (as a boxer) than tanks have on this forum? I wont count Hunters as they come with 5 tanky pets with no rez cost.. unlike poor locks who have no MD and it costs a soul shard to rez a pet.. and it's a longer cast time..

It's not just about dps, it's about how much survival you have to manage boxing anything, and for prots I do feel it needs a nerf.

Now without hand of the protector and flash heal being usable on anyone but yourself, how far could you progress?

[davidmage]

Yes I'm aware of that the teams I went with work wery well for multiboxing.
The reason I bring up talk about regular non boxing groups is because this game is not designed for multiboxers. So if blizzard should perform any kind of balancing, it should be done with consideration to what the regular players are doing.
So for example if we start seeing a lot of regular prot paladins who team up and perform much better than any other setups, that is a valid reason for a change.
However if a lot of boxers get the idea to run 5 prots, and it turns out to work well. Also for our boxing reasons a group of 5 paladins is one of the easier setups to manage and optimize as a boxer. So for multiboxers, prot palas may be an OP choice if you want the highest reward for the least effort.
With the m+ system this is fine anyway in my opinion, since you can find the proper challenge for your team in the level you choose to play.
But the "boxability" of a specific class or setup is none of blizzards consideration. If we start hearing about 5 tanks totally outperforming any other setups in the m+ race with regular players, then a change is motivated.
Or blizzard may choose to change a tanks role in a party, which may wreck our 5 tank teams totally. But it may be fine from a single players perspective, and then boxers have no say in it.

So whats really wrong at the moment is that both tanks and dps have come to the level of not needing a healer. (Non boxing hardcoreish perspective)
Since healers currently are so weak and not really needed, boxers who have used them in their teams take on a whole other challenge to actually make use of the nerfed healer role.
So many tanks and dps in general has lost the need for a healer (either due to tank self sustaining, or enough sustain of a dps + massive dps)
In our multiboxing world this inbalance has shown in the form of 5 prot palas, or dks. But I am sure that other strong teams are possible (with some more effort), but these worked nice and easy and therefore became popular.
If they made the heal only for yourself I would have to taunt and trade boss aggro. It would be uncomfortable but it is technically possible.

[Andreauk]

So far it's only boxers that know the power of 5 Prots, or a prot with x4 blood.. I'm sure the idea could catch on, but I'm betting solo players haven't even considered running as 5 tanks.

It wouldn't be so bad if all tanks could do this.. how long would say x5 Prot Warriors do boxed in Mythic 9.. or even lower?

[JohnGabriel]

5x prot pali has a limit in mythic+ because of their low dps. Yes it seems they can heal through anything but they cant ever beat the timer on high mythic.

For that reason I don't think it will ever catch on with the solo players, Its the 1xProt and 4xDPS that the nerf would be aimed at.

I also think this is blown way out of proportion. Only the highly skilled highly geared players are doing it, and those guys could run 5x disc priest through mythic+ if they wanted.

[daanji]

So far it's only boxers that know the power of 5 Prots, or a prot with x4 blood.

Normal players don't care, you'd never get 5-single players to run a 5x tank setup cause it is a waste of time. A standard trinity group is more efficient and less stress, while skilled and geared players are going to run 1x tank and 4x DPS.

We do it because we like to multi-box and tanks work well for that. It is not efficient or even advantageous in the least.
Blizzard is making changes as a result of perceived imbalance in the normal game play. If that is detrimental to boxers it is just collateral damage and is no part a direct action against boxers.