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  1. #1

    Default C5 WH - Ishtar, VNI, Domi, or Tengu?

    It's been a number of years that I have partaken in fleet based C5 capital escalations with other players. Yeah, sure you can make on average of 650 mill each site after all the laughs and jokes every 10 minutes but it's still divided up by those that participated. You might end up with just 450-500 mill an hour when the corp/alliance takes their cut. The worst thing about it is that you’re subject to those that log in.

    I have decided to break away and multibox C5 sites. I know there is multiple threads that talk about specific things but I would like to get the multiboxing communities opinion on a couple of things and ask for advice so I can burn in a ball of fire knowing I did the right thing from the start.

    So, here are some questions:

    1. Live in C5 or Nomad C5?
    2. With the upcoming mini expansion would it still be viable to live in a C4 with a C5 static to farm?
    3. The big question is what ship? Ishtar, VNI, Domi or Tengu. I do know that you could run C5 sites with 5 RR Tengu but you could also do the same with 5 RR Domi but it wasn’t as efficient as some would say because of limitations on speed, damage output and range. There was a thread that discussed people were using Ishtars or VNI. The debate was armor tanked vs. shield tanked. Generally the VNI can have more EHP then the Ishtar but then it is slightly harder to get drone range to 80-90km with the VNI. So in your opinion what would be the most viable ship to use?
    4. How many of that ship would be the utmost minimum to use?
    5. Mix with Logi or go straight RR.
    6. Recommended fittings for these 4 ships?

    I know there has been some discussion on these topics already but they have not been very active. Hopefully we can get some experienced players that could clear up some things on these topics.

    Also, what does the layout look on isboxer for some of these layouts as there is so many different variations you can find on this site?

    -K’man-
    Last edited by Khatovar : 08-23-2014 at 10:19 AM

  2. #2

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    Note: I've lived in a c5 before, my pvp main lives in w-space, but I haven't yet moved my alts into c4 or c5 space yet.

    1) If you want to run c5 sites, you need a c5 static. c4-c5 gives you intermittent access to the c4 neighborhood(those c4-c4 chains..) and keeps c5/c6 corps from dropping dreads to evict you(they still might bring a subcap fleet if you look juicy enough). c5-c5 would give you the option to run capital escalations at home once you skill up for that.

    2) I don't think the adding of a second static to a c4 is going to affect your ability to farm out the c5 static. Might give you better routes to k-space and might increase traffic a little, but I don't think it is going to change much.

    5) I prefer logi/dps at the moment. I decided I wanted to max out my DPS pilots and realistically you only need 3 T2 logi to run the hardest c5 sites. Still not sure if this is the ideal setup, as it is at risk to jams, but a cap-chain RR setup has the same weakness so.. still not sure. One long-term goal that has biased my decision is that this fleet will eventually cross-train into dread/carrier pilots to either sell or run escalations with.

    4) With logi/dps in mind, you realistically need 3x logi + as much DPS as you want to bring. Any DPS past the RR capabilities of the sleepers results in faster clear times so max that out to what you are comfortable with. I'm running 5x DPS pilots and 2x logi pilots and making the decision in a week or two to train up another 3x DPS 1x logi pilots.

    One thing nobody discusses is scouts + salvage. I run 1 dedicated scout in a cloaky loki(spare character, it works =\) who sits on what I consider the more dangerous hole. Currently my salvage pilot runs in a cormorant and cloaks up off of my return hole when not busy salvaging. I typically won't run a c3 if it has anything more two entrances, unless one of them is a high sec. The loki pilot scoops loot from the salvager every 4 sites and I take a break every 500-700m ISK to drop loot off.

    3) I'm in 5x shield buffer VNIs with 2x T1 logi right now. This facerolls c3 sites, it struggles with some c4 sites, and it would get stomped by c5 sites. The weak link is the logi, when one gets primaried in an info sanctum for example, I'm limited to 1x logi to rep it and it becomes a DPS race between blapping a sleeper battleship and the osprey going down. This will become a bigger issue in c5 sites when you're facing 2500-3500 dps. Perhaps someone with experience using cruiser hulls in c5 sites can speak up on the troubles they encounter.

    6) Here's what I currently use. Tested and works quite nicely in all weather c3s. Only just started using it in c4s(only ran 3 sites so far, don't run across c4 in my chain too often). The DPS immediately drops sentries and starts blapping stuff. Logi pulls range(5km..hah) and orbits the DPS ball. c3 site clears so fast that the logi typically only rep a few cycles per site. logi sig tanks the 1200dps waves pretty easily, seems to only take maybe 600-800 effective dps based off only having to pulse reps.




    This became quite the novel. To close things off, right now I run with isboxer using two character groups, logi and dps. I mouse/key broadcast restricted to the separate groups and rely on uniform UIs to keep things in check. I'm moving towards fleet broadcasts for DPS targeting and sticking with watchlist + prelock for reps at this moment. I still need to dig into the other isboxer features to see if I can better manipulate all the pilots.

  3. #3

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    Thanks for kicking things off Gomeler. When I lived in a c3 for 4 years I had 3 alts besides my main which completed the sites. The alts would sit on the wh exits and I would orbit while zoomed in on the wh in order to hear the world sounds when the wh would activate. I would then glance over on my other screen to see who it was and if I was able to see which direction they went. A lot of times they go to the sun so the 3rd alt would be sitting there at 50km in order to get tackle. If they are a little more experienced they will go to some planet and start bouncing around making safe spots. I would then refit my tengu for bait and have my alts cloaked in proteus's within dps range. Just about 500 dps each. If I would to get tackled I uncloak my alts, they panic and they pop faster then they realize what happened. My Tengu pilot was able to complete the c3 sites in approximately 12 minutes each. The ones with the nueting bs I would get within 500m of them so when I am fully capped out I just orbit and kill them while taking no damage.

    C3 sites got to easy so I moved into a c4 a couple years back and was running c5 sites from our c4 with a minimum of 5 tengu rr fit or if using any other ship type bringing logi. Now in regards to the RR tengu setup it would be difficult to do multiboxing as you would have to have them locked up in order to transfer shields while having the npc locked up and shooting them. It was very scary at times.

    Once I formally moved into a c5 with a c5 static in a different corp we were making close to 80 bill a month casually running sites with the typical 1 loki, 2 archon, 2 moros, 1 booster and 1 noctis. This was prior to having the mobile tractor units. This would be possible to multibox but your putting close to 20 - 25 billion isk on the site in order to clear them in 6 minutes each making 650 mill per site on average. The only issue I would think trying to use isboxer is having to refit the primary moros for cap or gank while maintaining webs from the loki. Especially if the npc are not within range in time.

    I have been really stuck on which of the 4 ships I mentioned previously in this thread as I am trying to find that sweet spot. I know more is better for dps and 2-3 logi however, there is that sweet spot where you take into account isk/hr per account. Either paying by PLEX or paying out of pocket. I just don't know how many pilots and in what ships.

    I think based on what I have read on other forums and on this site if it is just me and my alts I will shelter in a c4 with a c5 static.

    Any more opinions from the community on this topic would be fantastic.

  4. #4

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    Today i finally got t2 sentries on the last 2 of my alts and decided to do the first run of a c5 site multiboxing 1 ishtar 5 VNIs and 2 basis with tengu links using the following fits:

    [Ishtar, C5 main]
    Damage Control II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II


    Large Shield Extender II
    Large Shield Extender II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
    Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron


    Drone Link Augmentor II
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]


    Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
    Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II


    Curator II x5
    Gecko x2
    Hammerhead II x2
    Hobgoblin II x1
    Hornet II x5

    This is the main pilot which i am tabbed into while running the site ( apart from when i have to tab out to correct something )
    The painter is for drone assist, the web is so that my curators can do full dps to those pesky awakened sentinel cruisers who orbit close and have a high tank.

    [Vexor Navy Issue, C5 VNI alt]
    Internal Force Field Array I
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II
    Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II


    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Large Shield Extender II
    Large Shield Extender II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II


    Drone Link Augmentor I
    Drone Link Augmentor II
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]


    Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
    Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
    Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I


    Hammerhead II x5
    Hornet II x5
    Curator II x5

    This is what my other dps characters are flying, curators for 90% of the site and hammerheads to clear frigates, hornets might change to ecm version.

    [Basilisk, C5 logi]
    Damage Control II
    Warded Gravimetric Backup Cluster I


    EM Ward Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Large Shield Extender II
    Large Shield Extender II


    Large S95a Remote Shield Booster
    Large S95a Remote Shield Booster
    Large S95a Remote Shield Booster
    Large S95a Remote Shield Booster
    Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
    Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II


    Medium Ancillary Current Router I
    Medium Ancillary Current Router I

    T2 logi, scimis wont work due to reasons. Works with logi 4 although you need to be careful and cap might break if you are giving full reps while neuted by a wave of neuting BS and cruisers.

    [Tengu, Links PVE]
    Co-Processor II
    Co-Processor II
    Warp Core Stabilizer I
    Warp Core Stabilizer I


    Command Processor I
    Command Processor I
    Command Processor I
    Command Processor I
    [empty med slot]


    Siege Warfare Link - Shield Efficiency II
    Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II
    Siege Warfare Link - Active Shielding II
    Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II
    Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II
    Covert Ops Cloaking Device II


    Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
    Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
    Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I


    Tengu Defensive - Warfare Processor
    Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
    Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
    Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
    Tengu Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier

    This makes the web of the ishtar go out far enough to reach the awakened sentinels to hammer them down fast. Siege links dont need explanation, the sig link helps alot on tank by reducing the volley of the cruise missiles down to unlinked armortank level.


    I just did a Quarintine Area anomaly in my home system, i found only 1 thing wrong with this setup which is that when any of the VNIs or the ishtar is primaried by the neuts then the tank shuts off. Im going to try and fix or atleast reduce that problem by changing one invuln for a deadspace passive thermal hardener.

    Site took about 15 minutes from warp in to warp out which i think is ok for a first test run.

    Edit: In case anyone is interested ill post a pic of my monitor setup http://imgur.com/Unf2ik9 all fits on 1 monitor although im probably going to add some videofx of my basi's cap since im lacking that atm. With this i can turn on/off all modules on my alts and manage what my logis are repping. Logi targets are locked from a watchlist and logi reps can be controlled at the same time with broadcasting if you activate it while the cursor is on one of the basi videofxs.
    Last edited by Alzuule : 08-25-2014 at 09:20 AM

  5. #5

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    Now to try and answer your questions

    1. live in a c5 definitely, either that or a c4 with c5 and c3( i think thats what they are getting ) static. C5 home would give you access to eventually do cap escalations which is super duper high isk if soloed, c4 would mean easy kspace/highsec entrances and less chance of eviction for being a bear ( doesnt matter if you actually pvp if the right people see a tiny corp they might evict you just for being an easy target )
    2. yes and with the possibility of a c3/2/1 second static it will be even better due to easy access to highsec frequently, also if you have a c3 static that can be farmed as well and provide gank opportunities.
    3. for 4 ships you need to go tengus or shield RR domi. Tengu would be easiest even though domis would provide more dps, reason is that shield RR domis wont have the control range to not need improved bookmarks which takes extra time in a covops to set up.
    4. 3 domis minimum 4 to be safe, tengus probably the same
    5. if you have less then 5 people i wouldnt suggest dedicated logi since your dps will be better with spidertank ( and probably still will with 5 )
    6. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGfkhyFSAQg fit is in description

  6. #6

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    Alzuule is that 225 mill per hour per account or for the whole bunch? I put together that Domi fit in EFT and that is a very cheap fit. More on the lines with 250 mill per Domi. Means I could have 5 of my alts in Domi running c5 sites. Have you explored if Ishtars would be better than a Domi? I know you just started to play around with them but what would you think in the long run? I though about the possibility of Tengu fleet but its very expensive for lower dps.

    I used to run c5 sites with other corp mates but everyone logged off and didn't log back in for almost 9 months. I decided to move on but I would really like to get back into it and perfect the multiboxing aspect of it but nobody I have spoken to even knows what isboxer is. I also thought of the possibility of living in a c3 till my alts are trained to take on c5 sites. I figured I was running each site solo in a tengu every 10 minutes. That was before mobile tractor units.

    I was going to ask do you chain the c5 sites and not kill the last trigger so the site respawns the next day?

  7. #7

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    at an hourly rate of about 1b its not close to 225m an hour per account but its better than what you get per account for running incursions ( if you leave out the time logistics and salvaging takes ). The thing ishtars is that they cant really spidertank so you would have to get 2 logi characters for it to work, for 5 characters domis are your best bet. I think that ishtar+VNIs are pretty sweet, if i didnt have my link alt i would have to use all ishtars though since the tank wouldnt be enough on VNIs. Using all ishtars would probably also make the site go a bit faster but vastly increase the cost of the team. Applying dps is easy for cruisers and up all the way out to 75-80km, for frigates i let the VNIs stay on bigger things while i launch geckos on the ishtar and use that to clear the frigates.

    Chain running c5 sites only works for capital escalations since as soon as you destroy the first trigger the site will despawn, and just clearing the first wave isnt going to be profitable at all. While i could get better isk/hour from running 9 domis i would also destroy the mass of my static every time i went through it and the ship cost would be doubled so i trade some isk/hour for comfortability and cheapness. This way i dont have to roll after having to go back to my pos for 10 minutes due to something RL happening when ive only done 2 of 20 sites.
    Last edited by Alzuule : 08-26-2014 at 02:50 AM

  8. #8

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    Based on the information provided by the community I have learned the following:

    Less than 10 accounts with a RR setup go with 5x Domi or5x Tengu. The benefit to the Domi setup is that it is very cheap to fit and you can easily start quicker in regards to not being SP intensive. The downside to the Domi setup is that they are big potatoes, slow, huge signatures and not very agile if you need to leave quickly. The benefit to the Tengu setup is that they can project damage at farther ranges, higher resists and much faster to evade danger. They are also very versatile in regards to refitting to cloak and evade bubbles. The downside is that they are very expensive in comparison,especially for a new multiboxer and not well experienced running C5 sites.

    More than 10 accounts go with VNI or Ishtars. Combine them with at least 2 logistics ships T2 are preferred. Ishtars are able to hit at longer ranges and can match the DPS of a Domi or Tengu but are not able to RR each other. Their tank respectively to the VNI is not as squishy shield or armor tanked but cost slightly more than the VNI to fit. VNI are great for establishing the basis of multiboxing 8 VNI and 2 logistics. Any more than 10accounts add more DPS.

    Starting in a C3 is a good way to learn the ropes but will become boring and not as good in isk. One account can clear a C3 site every10 minutes only to make 240 mill an average on hour. The downside to this is that once you run out of sites in your home system. Most C3 wh only have statics to known space. C5 to C5 static would be ideal only after you have established and worked out the kinks for your operations. It is more likely if you are a small group that you will be evicted. If you’re a small operation like I am starting out in a C4 with a known space static and a C5 static would be ideal to run operations while not being too concerned about being evicted.This would also pose to be a good place to practice multiboxing PVP as the upcoming changes to C4 WH will allow for more traffic.

    My end goal is to be in my own corp or in an established WH Corp/Alliance multiboxing C5 sites in capitals as I have previously done before but only as one entity of the 5 involved. I tried for a long time to get into an established WH Corp but without luck.

    I will start out with training 4 more of my alts specifically for Gallente from scratch for the purpose of 5x Domi and will cross train 2 of them eventually into Amarr for Archons and 1 of them for the Loki if that is still viable. However, I have learned that you can run sites quicker by getting bookmarks in the spawn points and using high dps moros while the sleeper BS are moving away from you. As long as you’re fast you can pop them before they get out of range and start their transversal making it more difficult to track them. Each escalation will spawn in the same spot allowing for the same process.

    I will eventually need to learn how to setup isboxer.
    Last edited by Khatovar : 08-26-2014 at 12:53 PM Reason: font

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by K'man View Post
    Based on the information provided by the community I have learned the following:

    Less than 10 accounts with a RR setup go with 5x Domi or5x Tengu. The benefit to the Domi setup is that it is very cheap to fit and you can easily start quicker in regards to not being SP intensive. The downside to the Domi setup is that they are big potatoes, slow, huge signatures and not very agile if you need to leave quickly. The benefit to the Tengu setup is that they can project damage at farther ranges, higher resists and much faster to evade danger. They are also very versatile in regards to refitting to cloak and evade bubbles. The downside is that they are very expensive in comparison,especially for a new multiboxer and not well experienced running C5 sites.

    More than 10 accounts go with VNI or Ishtars. Combine them with at least 2 logistics ships T2 are preferred. Ishtars are able to hit at longer ranges and can match the DPS of a Domi or Tengu but are not able to RR each other. Their tank respectively to the VNI is not as squishy shield or armor tanked but cost slightly more than the VNI to fit. VNI are great for establishing the basis of multiboxing 8 VNI and 2 logistics. Any more than 10accounts add more DPS.

    Starting in a C3 is a good way to learn the ropes but will become boring and not as good in isk. One account can clear a C3 site every10 minutes only to make 240 mill an average on hour. The downside to this is that once you run out of sites in your home system. Most C3 wh only have statics to known space. C5 to C5 static would be ideal only after you have established and worked out the kinks for your operations. It is more likely if you are a small group that you will be evicted. If you’re a small operation like I am starting out in a C4 with a known space static and a C5 static would be ideal to run operations while not being too concerned about being evicted.This would also pose to be a good place to practice multiboxing PVP as the upcoming changes to C4 WH will allow for more traffic.

    My end goal is to be in my own corp or in an established WH Corp/Alliance multiboxing C5 sites in capitals as I have previously done before but only as one entity of the 5 involved. I tried for a long time to get into an established WH Corp but without luck.

    I will start out with training 4 more of my alts specifically for Gallente from scratch for the purpose of 5x Domi and will cross train 2 of them eventually into Amarr for Archons and 1 of them for the Loki if that is still viable. However, I have learned that you can run sites quicker by getting bookmarks in the spawn points and using high dps moros while the sleeper BS are moving away from you. As long as you’re fast you can pop them before they get out of range and start their transversal making it more difficult to track them. Each escalation will spawn in the same spot allowing for the same process.

    I will eventually need to learn how to setup isboxer.
    Kinda sorta not quite.

    You got most of it tho.

    I'll shoot you a convo or w/e later, or talk to you if you're on comms - I'm fairly certain you're in one of the corps I've got characters in.

    I'm happy to explain how wspace works etc etc - the other multiboxers here who are in wspace (at least those I know of) all originally learned the basics etc etc from me. :P

  10. #10

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    I know who you are Lord's Servant. You were in the same corp as one of my alts back in 2009. Hit me up in game and we can chat.

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