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Thread: Rogues

  1. #1

    Default Rogues

    This is basically a copy/paste from my recent MMO thread asking the same questions. My new project is 5 rogues. So far they've been pretty awful, but I haven't given up on them yet. I don't think they'll ever be that good at BGs, but I'm hopeful they're viable in arena. Read below if you're interested, and let me know your thoughts!


    TLDR: some theorycrafting and questions regarding multiboxing 5 rogues in 5v5 arena.

    My rogues recently hit 90 and will be gearing up once 5.2 hits. I built this team specifically because the new talents in 5.2 and the possibility that they would be viable in 5v5 arena.

    Theorycrafting that welcomes criticism and my general questions to the community:

    (1) all rogues will be sub spec, and likely using Cloak and Dagger (C&D) and Marked for Death (MfD). Marked for Death is still questionable as I may not need it and may get more usage out of Shuriken Toss (ST). After reading the comments below, I would appreciate feedback on if MfD is needed or if I can get away with ST instead. I plan on using Subterfuge and I'm hoping for a kill before my toons even appear on the enemies screen, assuming I'm not in a flare.

    (2) the general strategy is to go for an immediate kill and then vanish. Prep, another immediate kill and then vanish again. I would be left with 5v3 at which point I can open again and hopefully get it to 5v2 by the time my rogues have to take any pressure from the other team. I realize this is extremely optimistic and I would appreciate any comments others have on how to exactly approach the situation.

    (3) the immediate kill strategy is to open using C&D with 1x cheap shot, and 4x ambush, followed by 5x 5cp eviscerates using MfD. Is that enough to kill most players? The reaction time for the player should only be about 1 second (the time between the first ambush and the eviscerate). Some may be able to react quickly enough, but I'm hoping the CS will force the use of a trinket and then use a defensive ability, which may be too fast of reaction time for the sub 2000 rated teams.

    I will likely use CoS for each kill cycle, though that will limit me to only popping out once a minute and make me vulnerable to the healers rezzing their dead. If they start rezzing I will be forced to start early at which point I will use Shadow Blades (do you think I should instead burn Shadow Blades on the first kill target to ensure it's a 5v4 match?)

    (4) the gearing plan is to go full PvP power, without ignoring any set bonus that gives agility (I will ignore resilience set bonuses and instead gem more PvP power). I know most rogues stack resilience in PvP and this is very counter-intuitive, but my thought is if I am getting hit, since I don't have a healer then I've likely lost the game anyway.

    I will be stacking mastery as much as possible for the big eviscerates. I chose this over crit because I should be using a disproportionate amount of finishers with 5cp eviscerates (the quicker the target dies, the quicker I have another 5cp eviscerate ready).

    Another non-traditional route is I will likely use maces instead of daggers. The thought process is the slower weapons will have larger burst for the 1-2 swings I will get in (assuming SnD) before the target is dead. The disadvantage is that I lose out on the ability to use backstab, but due to positional requirements I can not reliably count on being behind the target while multiboxing (other than ambush through the use of C&D). I'm really not sold if the advantage of slower weapons is worth the reduced poison proc chance and would appreciate feedback.

    Regarding poisons, my thought is to possibly use all wound poison as it does a small amount more of initial damage. However, I'm really not sold on this approach as you do lose the DoT component of deadly poison and that DoT may be enough to finish someone off if I have to bailout before they're dead.

    The team is currently dwarves so I will get the mace expertise bonus. I chose dwarves due to stoneform and the ability to ensure I effectively vanish and drop all DoTs - please advise if you would use a different race for this unique approach. I'm guessing most would choose humans as there is the possibility for more damage. I thought ensuring a full vanish so I can setup another kill would be more important, but I could be mistaken.

    (5) I'm not sure what my kill order should be. Hunters seem to be the ones who could most hurt my comp with their flare, but I'm worried about deterrence. Similarly mages will be a pain with their frost nova, but I'm worried about their Ice Block. I'd appreciate feedback on what the kill order should be. Please note that I can open up with a garrote, cheap shot, 3x ambush (one less ambush, add garrote) for classes like a shaman (thunderstorm) or mage (blink). However, that does reduce my burst damage. Similarly, I can throw in a disarm to remove the shield for pallies (though they'll just bubble) and elemental shamans (though I'd likely rather have the garrote, CS, and 3 ambushes).

    (6) Another approach I can use, since I will be using C&D, is to attempt to kill two targets with one burst phase. The cycle would go something like: Tricks of the Trade, premed, SnD, energy recovery, shadow dance, shadow blades, CS/ambush x4, MfD, 5cp evisc x5, CS/ambush x4 new target, MfD, 5cp evisc x5, cloak, vanish, stoneform, sprint. Is that remotely possible? I can certainly macro the abilities, but that approach above is assuming the other players have fallen asleep. However, all that real action does theoretically happen in 4 seconds.

    Another tool that I can incorporate is smoke bomb. I'd appreciate feedback, but remember that I am in a GCD race, and every GCD I spend takes away from either an ambush or an eviscerate. I can also blind all other targets in range, but it uses a GCD unless it's pre burst (which means I can't be fighting a hunter).
    Owltoid, Thatblueguy, Thisblueguy, Otherblueguy, Whichblueguy

  2. #2

    Default

    I haven't really tried arena, but the rogues are a ton of fun in BGs. I'd definitely recommend the team, though it was probably the worst team to actually level (no healer or tank makes dungeons not viable). If you're looking for a new team and already have a couple at 90 then I'd suggest considering rogues.
    Owltoid, Thatblueguy, Thisblueguy, Otherblueguy, Whichblueguy

  3. #3

    Default

    Hey Owltoid

    I've been leveling (albeit slowly due to too much work) 3 rogues with 2 druids for some stealthing fun in BG/world PVP. Then 5.2 hit and i almost cancelled. Found the work arounds with mounts and travel form so kept going but I am worried about suspensions due to "abuse of ingame mechanics".

    So far my setups I've tried in low level BG's cant really compare to level 90 stuff since im missing a lot of the toys so I've resorted to DF grind to just get there quicker and im honor capped besides. Subterfuge and CaD are just plain awesome for these guys especially using vanish/prep/vanish aggressively to stay on slippery targets. I kinda wish my feral druid was another rogue but maybe using Wild Charge creatively will keep em on target and close to the action.

    Missed your stream the other night maybe I can catch it another time to see how your setup is performing.

  4. #4

    Default

    The good thing is your group will be solid for PvE since you can have a healer and tank. For PvP I'd suggest dropping a Druid and adding a rogue.

    There were bans for the abuse of game mechanics, but we don't know why. The bans occurred when the player was using both the mount and the vendor methods. In my opinion, not based on anything but my views, the bans occurred because of the vendor. There is a big difference between using multi person mounts, something that has existed in PvP for a long time, and the vendor which is a clear abuse. I feel comfortable with the mount method, and it was worked without an issue for about 10 hours of BGs so far, but you never know.
    Owltoid, Thatblueguy, Thisblueguy, Otherblueguy, Whichblueguy

  5. #5

    Default

    I have a question for you. Do you think it is possible to global another player with 5x Ambush from stealth? I am thinking just for world pvp and not necessarily in arenas or a group situation. That with the 2 second glyph for stealth should make for a lot of fun.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fleaplus View Post
    I have a question for you. Do you think it is possible to global another player with 5x Ambush from stealth? I am thinking just for world pvp and not necessarily in arenas or a group situation. That with the 2 second glyph for stealth should make for a lot of fun.
    Fully t2 geared? Maybe. Otherwise no.
    The Internet: We Know Drama
    If you're gona screw with my sig at least leave the thing bolded :P

  7. #7

    Default

    Owltoid, now that /follow is back in arena any chance you can do a Youtube for us who aren't able to watch streams at work? I want to check in on your progress, gearing and set up as my druid + 4 enhancement shaman could probably benefit from it as I am still grinding up.

    Have you started to work out a kill sequence for potential adversaries yet? Who do you want to open up on for maximum chance for an instant kill/deny their team a burst player/healer, etc..?

  8. #8

    Default

    I had some success early today against a 1750ish and a 1550ish team, but this evening I've been getting rocked by everything. Sometimes it feels like I barely scratch my kill target. They're fun, but either I'm doing something very wrong (good likelihood) or they're not viable for arena.

    I tried my enhancement shamans again today in BGs. Wow, those things do some damage.
    Owltoid, Thatblueguy, Thisblueguy, Otherblueguy, Whichblueguy

  9. #9

    Default

    I just leveled a goup with 1 frost DK, 3 Ass. Rogues and 1 Holy Priest to 80 and i can say it´s a lot of fun. You can rush through the dungeons because of their massive AOE dmg and in World-PVP you can beat almost everything of your lvl or2 or 3 levels higher. I am looking forward on having a lot of fun when they are level 90

  10. #10

    Default

    Cloak and Dagger now requires the Rogue to be in Stealth. Shadow Dance will not remove the Stealth requirement for Cloak and Dagger. has a range of 20 yards, down from 30 yards.
    Find Weakness now bypasses 100% of armor against non-player targets, and bypasses 50% of armor when used against other players (was 70% armor bypass for all targets).

    Damn :/

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